View Poll Results: If something is a tradition, should laws must reflect it?

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Thread: Traditions

  1. #91
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    Re: Traditions

    As far as I can tell, traditions serve two functions: to create a familiar bond between a community of people, and to foster a comfort zone that people can always steadfastly rely upon. Even hate-filled traditions can serve these functions if it enhances positive relationships with people. Neo-nazis have hateful beliefs but they certainly like one another, based on principle. So the beliefs serve a function, traditionally speaking.

    In my own family, my siblings and I broke with many traditions because we did not find them compatible with the way the world does and should operate at present. Others we continue to adhere to because they have positive values.

    I dunno... use your brain and critical thinking. If you're blindly following a tradition then you might be doing something harmful out of ignorance.

  2. #92
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And yet people still construct walls around their own personal homes.
    some people do - and sometimes that is for security (for those whose circumstances advise it), privacy, or decoration. The original level of impetus is still there only for select individuals - for example, the White House has a wall, and for good reason. Your house, however, likely does not require a wall in order to help keep people who live a couple of neighborhoods over from kidnapping and marrying your daughters.

    However, to take that and then extrapolate from it "obviously this tradition serves no purpose, and we can get rid of it" would serve poorly for one who designed (for example) houses for those who are likely targets for harassment/kidnapping/assassination.

    I never said I disagreed with any of the traditions that I mentioned. (In fact, my father gave me away and my husband asked my father if he could marry me before we got married. Granted we were getting married even if he had said no.) They are traditions that are nothing more than that though. They aren't legally binding, as most aren't and most have no reason to be legally binding otherwise they would be laws not merely traditions.
    the boundary between "tradition" and "law" is pretty permeable.

  3. #93
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Pretty much, yes. Basically none of the man's ideas were grounded in reality, but rather abstract ideology built upon Enlightenment era philosophical fluff.
    Without specifics, a sweeping statement like that carries basically zero weight in a debate. Which is not to say (as I already pointed out) that his ideas were in fact full of flaws, but you need to do better than just these empty one-offs.

    They have failed just about everywhere they have been tried, for exactly that reason.
    They have, but not for that reason at all. These ideas worked (and continue to work) just fine for a very small number of people who agree to abide by them, such as the population of a kibbutz or an ashram. They fail for larger populations only because there's always someone who wants all the power for himself.

    Neither Republican China nor Tsarist Russia were responsible for butchering their own populations by the tens of millions.
    Don't try to paper over the fact that both Republican China and Tsarist Russia killed plenty of their own people with whom they were unhappy. To judge the relative merits of governments exclusively by body count is just silly.

    In the longer term, the ordinary peasants turned out to be somewhat better off under Stalin and Mao than they were under their predecessors.

    The simple fact of the matter is that "Revolution" was never necessary to bring those societies forward in the first place. More moderate, and incremental means could have achieved similar or better results, without the needless bloodshed and barbarity Mao or the USSR inflicted.
    An even simpler fact is that revolution takes place when the government fails its people. Thinking about what could have happened instead is rather useless.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
    This group is the worst enemy of America and its freedoms. It includes, but is not limited to, all Trump supporters.

  4. #94
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    some people do - and sometimes that is for security (for those whose circumstances advise it), privacy, or decoration. The original level of impetus is still there only for select individuals - for example, the White House has a wall, and for good reason. Your house, however, likely does not require a wall in order to help keep people who live a couple of neighborhoods over from kidnapping and marrying your daughters.

    However, to take that and then extrapolate from it "obviously this tradition serves no purpose, and we can get rid of it" would serve poorly for one who designed (for example) houses for those who are likely targets for harassment/kidnapping/assassination.

    the boundary between "tradition" and "law" is pretty permeable.
    The major problem I see is that you seem to think I am advocating that if a tradition serves no purpose that it should be mandated or even pushed for it to go away. This is not true. I think people should be free to adhere to whatever traditions they personally want to so long as they do not force others to adhere to those traditions as well.

    Laws should be in place because they serve a purpose in protecting people or promoting the general welfare, not because something is tradition. If a tradition happens to either protect people and/or promote the general welfare, then it can be a law, so long as it is weighed against any harm it may cause in doing this.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  5. #95
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Without specifics, a sweeping statement like that carries basically zero weight in a debate. Which is not to say (as I already pointed out) that his ideas were in fact full of flaws, but you need to do better than just these empty one-offs.

    They have, but not for that reason at all. These ideas worked (and continue to work) just fine for a very small number of people who agree to abide by them, such as the population of a kibbutz or an ashram. They fail for larger populations only because there's always someone who wants all the power for himself.
    Exactly. Even ignoring his ludicrous ideas regarding the nature of history, social order, and morality, the simple fact of the matter is that Marx's theories almost completely ignore human nature, opting for a strictly deterministic approach instead. That has been shown time and again to be false.

    Human beings simply are not an "egalitarian" species, nor are they inclined to think in strictly "egalitarian" terms. More dominant personalities are always present, and they have a strong tendency to take disproportionate amounts of power for themselves.

    Besides which, Marx's ideas can't even really be said to "work" on a small scale either. Every commune I'm aware of has basically broken down and gone extinct after a generation or two.

    The vast majority of people just are not interested in living by the rules Marxism sets forward.

    Don't try to paper over the fact that both Republican China and Tsarist Russia killed plenty of their own people with whom they were unhappy.
    The USSR and Red China killed more by an order of a magnitude. They imprisoned, tortured, exiled, and repressed massively larger portions of their populations as well.

    There is really no comparison.

    To judge the relative merits of governments exclusively by body count is just silly.

    In the longer term, the ordinary peasants turned out to be somewhat better off under Stalin and Mao than they were under their predecessors.
    Not in the least. The only benefits brought about by either the USSR or Red China were indirect results of industrialization.

    Again, that was accomplished largely in spite of the ideology embraced by these regimes, rather than because of it. It was also not a development which necessarily required "revolution" in the first place.

    Plenty of underdeveloped countries have made that transition peacefully. Tsarist Russia was actually well on it's way to industrialization before WW1 even broke out.

    If anything, the damage caused by the Russian Revolution and subsequent Communist economic incompetence slowed the process down.

  6. #96
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You do realize that you're clueless. The Catholics did not enslave the Orthodox
    Really, so Serbian Orthodox were not enslaved by Catholic Crusaders? Want to bet on that?

    nor did the Pope preach hatred of anyone.
    You appear not to know who Pope Urban II was:

    Pope Urban II's Speech Calling for the First Crusade

    Moreover the leaders of the raid on Constantinople were excommunicated by the Pope. Despite what neocons say, America wasn't exactly founded on Christian principles.
    We finally agree on something. America wasn't exactly founded on Christian principles
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #97
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You appear not to know who Pope Urban II was:

    Pope Urban II's Speech Calling for the First Crusade
    And? What's the problem? I see no preaching of hatred here.

    He, quite frankly, makes a fair point.

    Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends.


    The speech really isn't any different than what you might see a modern politician making to sell a war.

  8. #98
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Really, so Serbian Orthodox were not enslaved by Catholic Crusaders? Want to bet on that?



    You appear not to know who Pope Urban II was:

    Pope Urban II's Speech Calling for the First Crusade



    We finally agree on something. America wasn't exactly founded on Christian principles
    It's true.

    That's not hatred.

  9. #99
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Why friggin' bother?
    I mean, actually, why would you ask this question? Do you think there's room for discussion?
    Replace Jews with Gays.

    I think there is a discussion.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  10. #100
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    It's a dodge.
    Of course it's a dodge. Paleo doesn't want to admit he's using double standards!
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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