View Poll Results: Does the US have a moral responsibility to combat ISIS

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  • Yes, it's a moral imperative.

    17 33.33%
  • No, they're not a threat yet worthy of confrontation

    3 5.88%
  • Yes, but only in a limited and supporting role.

    16 31.37%
  • No, it's none of our business

    19 37.25%
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Thread: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

  1. #101
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    The Middle East, with it's secular strife, has been a cluster**** for thousands of years. I agree that it may not have been the best of decisions to go in their militarily, however, once 9/11 happened, would couldn't afford to NOT go in there militarily in a substantive way.

    The US didn't have a substantive response to our African embassies being bombed prior, and this lack of response begat the 9/11 attack. I shudder to think what a lack of response to 9/11 would have begat.

    And you could go further back. Had not the tragedy of Black Hawk down in Somalia never happened, and the subsequent withdraw in the face of the Somali war lord's opposition, the perception of the US being weak may never have been started.

    So 20/20 hindsight is always a losing game, and the situation is now what it is. Do we wait for major western countries to fall and / or come into major conflict with ISIS before we intervene? When ISIS's power is greater? Or do we try to preempt and thwart ISIS before they gain too much power? A difficult choice to make.

    Fundamental tactics is to not fight on the ground and time of your enemy's choosing, but on the ground and timing of your choosing.
    The only thing that gave the perception that we were weak was GW Bush who dropped the ball on Bin Laden and his plot. We even caught one of the hijackers training to fly 2 weeks before 911 and Bush did nothing to warn the airlines. There will always be people who want to hurt us no matter what we do. The key is intelligence that can stop the attacks before they happen. Terrorist thrive on conflict and death, normal people not so much. We can't keep on playing "whack a mole" with the world. It is a very dangerous game.

  2. #102
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    The only thing that gave the perception that we were weak was GW Bush who dropped the ball on Bin Laden and his plot.
    I suppose it depends on which plot you are talking about. The one that came immediately mind was this:


    You know, nipping the problem in the bud, before it grows larger and stronger, as it were.

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    We even caught one of the hijackers training to fly 2 weeks before 911 and Bush did nothing to warn the airlines. There will always be people who want to hurt us no matter what we do. The key is intelligence that can stop the attacks before they happen. Terrorist thrive on conflict and death, normal people not so much. We can't keep on playing "whack a mole" with the world. It is a very dangerous game.
    Yeah, "whack a mole" isn't very productive. Probably need to be far more thorough, forceful, and deadly efficient without remorse, exactly as they are, unfortunately, except with better intel, weapons, and tactics.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

  3. #103
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I suppose it depends on which plot you are talking about. The one that came immediately mind was this:


    You know, nipping the problem in the bud, before it grows larger and stronger, as it were.



    Yeah, "whack a mole" isn't very productive. Probably need to be far more thorough, forceful, and deadly efficient without remorse, exactly as they are, unfortunately, except with better intel, weapons, and tactics.
    At least Clinton tried to get Bin Laden much to chagrin of Republicans who said it was wagging the dog at the time. The info released last year proved that Bush brushed off all reports of Al-Qaida activity as a hoax perpetrated by Saddam Hussein and refused to warn the airlines or anybody about the impending "attack from the air" that he received repeated warnings about.
    I think your are dreaming if you think Americans will become SS storm troopers anytime soon. We are tired of useless expensive wars that make things worse. Drones that kill terrorist leaders are the best offense against them as it denies them the targets that they desire.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 08-27-14 at 01:51 AM.

  4. #104
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    North Korea, and even Iran to some extent, are similar pariah in the world, yet they have trading partners, though many times by extortion.
    And N Korea is set send an army marching off somewhere?
    I'd be surprised if NK could afford the gas to send a sizable convoy to their border let alone to conquer territory hundreds or thousands of miles away..

    Iran is not really in the same ball park as ISIS when it comes to international acceptance.

    To wage a campaign where in ISIS crosses Turkey or the Mediterranean to topple a European country would require much more than what ISIS will ever have.

    There's a reason why they are associated with terrorism. Terrorism is (relatively) cheap.
    The external threat from ISIS is more about terrorism than conquering armies.
    I may be wrong.

  5. #105
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    The US military is a Public-Private partnership that directly and especially indirectly employs or leads to the employment of tens of millions of Americans. For every 5 US military employees there are probably at minimum 20 US citizens somehow employed through contracts that wouldn't exist for their companies without US military sponsorship. Many Americans simply don't grasp this.
    The truth is a great number of private sector US workers aren't actually private sector. Their companies exist thanks to business dealings with the US military.
    Expounding on your theory doesn't actually rebut our current sorry state of economic affairs which has included two massive wars.

    Is it just military spending which boosts an economy? Or would any significant govt spending do?
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Quote me entirely, I said we need will as well.
    The will to stick to the plan no matter what, not forge new ones out our ass like Iraq 2003.
    So we topple ISIS and split.
    Then what happens in these weapon-rich, war-torn areas full of orphans and other war-embittered people?
    Seems that is pretty much the conditions which got us where we are today.

    Your plan doesn't sound that much different than Rumsfeld's except you don't seem to be expecting Iraq to turn into a shining example of democracy 6 months afterward..
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?


  8. #108
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    So we topple ISIS and split.
    Then what happens in these weapon-rich, war-torn areas full of orphans and other war-embittered people?
    Seems that is pretty much the conditions which got us where we are today.

    Your plan doesn't sound that much different than Rumsfeld's except you don't seem to be expecting Iraq to turn into a shining example of democracy 6 months afterward..
    honestly i can give a flying **** if it turns into a democracy or not. I just want their faces in the sand enough for them to never be able to attack the U.S again.
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

  9. #109
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    At least Clinton tried to get Bin Laden much to chagrin of Republicans who said it was wagging the dog at the time. The info released last year proved that Bush brushed off all reports of Al-Qaida activity as a hoax perpetrated by Saddam Hussein and refused to warn the airlines or anybody about the impending "attack from the air" that he received repeated warnings about.
    As opposed to Clinton pretty much ignoring the problem? Yeah, figures that'd be your position. The 'Blame Bush' position. The reality is as it always is, and that's it took many hands and many actions to get to where we are. It's pretty useless, beyond petty partisanship, to try to blame any single president.

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I think your are dreaming if you think Americans will become SS storm troopers anytime soon. We are tired of useless expensive wars that make things worse. Drones that kill terrorist leaders are the best offense against them as it denies them the targets that they desire.
    While I agree that drones seem to be the most effective, but it's like spraying Round Up on weeds. The weeds always come back at some point, and sometimes you have to actually pull the weeds out.

    Rather presumptuous, that use of 'we', I think.

    While I'm not saying that there isn't a war weariness in the nation, there is. What I am saying is that sometimes early engagement is the cheaper route, in terms of loss of life, financial commitment, better outcome, etc. than delaying engagement. The skill and wisdom is to recognize if the situation is one of these, to effectively marshal the needed support and resources, and to execute, limiting and controlling mission creep.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

  10. #110
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    Re: Does the US have a moral responsibility to help combat ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    honestly i can give a flying **** if it turns into a democracy or not. I just want their faces in the sand enough for them to never be able to attack the U.S again.
    I don't know if that's even possible. So what you are saying is that we should repeat the Russian experience in Afghanistan? That didn't work out so well for them, and I believe they were far more brutal about it than we were.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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