To what standard should police be held?

CRUE CAB said:

With all the cop hate in the country. I propose that we disband all Police Departments.
Or all anyone who wants to, to opt out of police protection.

Click to expand...

I've suggested the second part a few times. I wonder - all these internet toughies who are all about hating the cops, what would they do the first time they are in danger, or need something. They'd call 911 without thinking.

X Factor said:

Super human of course. As soon as they put on a badge and a uniform it must be assumed they're a hairs breadth away from the Nazi Gestapo and the repeated failure to give those they arrest a letter of apology along with a copy of the arrest warrant proves they are nothing but jack booted, mentally defective thugs whose very existence is of zero value.

duh

Click to expand...

I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy, but I wasn't trying to prove a point or pull a gotcha with my question. I was looking for a real answer.

tres borrachos said:

I've suggested the second part a few times. I wonder - all these internet toughies who are all about hating the cops, what would they do the first time they are in danger, or need something. They'd call 911 without thinking.

Click to expand...

And bitch and threaten to call the mayor if they had to wait longer than 30 seconds! :thumbdown:

Mr. Invisible said:

In any situation involving power dynamics, the one who has more power should be held to a higher moral standard. This is not to say that the other party should just be allowed to do whatever and held to no moral standard, but in this case the police should be held to a higher standard.

Click to expand...

Does it count for nothing that the police officer, as a requirement of his job, is expected to take far more risks and put himself into far more dangerous situations than is expected of the rest of us? And the power he is granted to do his job is primarily because of that? A lapse in judgment or a wrong choice by any of us can have serious, even deadly, consequences for others. I checked 'same as everybody else' which means that the negligent police officer will be held liable for causing unnecessary harm to others as we all of us are held liable to causing unnecessary harm to others. The only 'morality' that should involve any authority is that which does harm.

AlbqOwl said:

Does it count for nothing that the police officer, as a requirement of his job, is expected to take far more risks and put himself into far more dangerous situations than is expected of the rest of us? And the power he is granted to do his job is primarily because of that? A lapse in judgment or a wrong choice by any of us can have serious, even deadly, consequences for others. I checked 'same as everybody else' which means that the negligent police officer will be held liable for causing unnecessary harm to others as we all of us are held liable to causing unnecessary harm to others. The only 'morality' that should involve any authority is that which does harm.

Click to expand...

The police should be held to a higher standard due to the power dynamics as I stated earlier, especially due to the fact that they have the power to take the life of a person. For that alone even, I think they should be held to a higher standard.

tres borrachos said:

I checked "Higher standard than the rest of us" and then I wished I could have taken it back. They should be held to the same standard as the rest of us when it comes to malfeasance on the job. You do something improper as a cop, you should have to pay the price. No more, no less.

Why is a cop who does something "improper" any worse an offender than a teacher who abuses a kid, or a CEO who abuses his power - or a politician who abuses his office?

Click to expand...

You left out the single most important factor. Power.

Police have an incredible amount of power. In the history of mankind, society has always placed a higher standard of behavior and honor on the holders of power. The Romans executed governors who erred, not the Centurians who did the deeds. Ships captains are expected to be the last off the ship, a pilot drinking on the job risks lives and therefore loses his career as opposed to a roadside suspension.

Police, good ones I have known, know and respect that. They know their testimony carries more weight with a jury, they know that they're mere arrival can alter the scene. They know that what they hear going into an incident is likely wrong, that just because someone may have thought they saw a gun, they wait to see one for themselves before opening fire.

The good ones.

What triggers me, if you will pardon the reference, is the usual knee jerk reaction from the gun lobby, wannabees and ex-military, is the immediate assumption the suspect is lying and that all cops are good.

They aren't. And when they're bad, the results are far more injurious and harmful than say a dentist who screws up a filling....

Thus higher standards.

polgara said:

And bitch and threaten to call the mayor if they had to wait longer than 30 seconds! :thumbdown:

Click to expand...

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Fearandloathing said:

You left out the single most important factor. Power.

Police have an incredible amount of power. In the history of mankind, society has always placed a higher standard of behavior and honor on the holders of power. The Romans executed governors who erred, not the Centurians who did the deeds. Ships captains are expected to be the last off the ship, a pilot drinking on the job risks lives and therefore loses his career as opposed to a roadside suspension.

Police, good ones I have known, know and respect that. They know their testimony carries more weight with a jury, they know that they're mere arrival can alter the scene. They know that what they hear going into an incident is likely wrong, that just because someone may have thought they saw a gun, they wait to see one for themselves before opening fire.

The good ones.

What triggers me, if you will pardon the reference, is the usual knee jerk reaction from the gun lobby, wannabees and ex-military, is the immediate assumption the suspect is lying and that all cops are good.

They aren't. And when they're bad, the results are far more injurious and harmful than say a dentist who screws up a filling....

Thus higher standards.

Click to expand...

all cops are good


Nobody with any brain would say that because there is no perfection in the world. There are almost 1 million police officers in this country. It's unrealistic to believe that in a group that large, you will find all goodness.

Of course a policeman has power. So do teachers. So do lawyers - hell, lawyers have someone else's life in their hands. I'm a sales manager - I have power too.

You will always find people who abuse power. MOST don't. Just like you can find a scared teenager who drowns her newborn in a toilet, but MOST scared teenage mothers don't do that.

A pilot drinking on the job isn't relevant to the "hold to a higher standard than the rest of us" discussion. None of us are supposed to be drinking and operating a machine. The mechanic isn't supposed to be drinking while fixing the plane either, and he will get fired if caught, so no, the pilot is not held to any higher standard than the rest of us.

Anyone who breaks a law or gets caught abusing his/her power should be punished, no matter what position that person is in.

tres borrachos said:

Of course a policeman has power. So do teachers. So do lawyers - hell, lawyers have someone else's life in their hands. I'm a sales manager - I have power too.

Click to expand...

Those levels of power are so divergent as to be virtually apples and oranges. Just about the only civilian profession that wields as much... probably more... power as police are judges.

The police have to be held to a high standard, higher than an ordinary person. In return they should be paid well and given respect.

I would like to see candidates with authoritarian or volatile personalities washed out during their training. The police force should not be a place for fascists, racists, control freaks, hotheads, bullies or victims of childhood bullying seeking revenge.

The reality is that police spend a lot of time dealing with mentally ill people and/or people having a crisis.

Instead of less than a year of training, in addition to the usual policing skills, officers should have at least two years of training/education that includes de-escalation/conflict resolution, mediation, history, theory and critiques of policing, history and politics of class and race, diversity and cultural competency, and psychology. Officers should be skilled at working with mentally ill people and learn the skills taught to psychiatric technicians in "restraining violent or potentially violent or suicidal patients by verbal or physical means as required." (About Psychiatric Technicians - American Association of Psychiatric Technicians)

Eliminating recreational drug prohibition and increasing the educational requirements for policing will help achieve greater diversity and more professionalism. Allowing a greater diversity of people into police work would greatly improve policing and community relations. As it is now, nearly all cops are politically conservative, religious, authoritarian conformists with a background in sports and/or the military. Many were bullies or thuggish in their younger years. Those are the few people willing to do some of the more unsavory aspects of police work such as harassing minorities and marginalized people, enforcing the class system and arresting people for victimless crimes.

tres borrachos said:

...

You will always find people who abuse power. MOST don't. ...

Click to expand...

Actually, history shows that people with enough power will abuse it if they are not held accountable.

“Abuse of power comes as no surprise” Jenny Holzer

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, historian 1897

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" William Pitt the Elder, 1770

They should be held to the highest standard and fired far more often for breaking laws or violating rights up to and including FAR MORE jail time so that we get good good GOOD cops.

tres borrachos said:

all cops are good


Nobody with any brain would say that because there is no perfection in the world. There are almost 1 million police officers in this country. It's unrealistic to believe that in a group that large, you will find all goodness.

Of course a policeman has power. So do teachers. So do lawyers - hell, lawyers have someone else's life in their hands. I'm a sales manager - I have power too.

You will always find people who abuse power. MOST don't. Just like you can find a scared teenager who drowns her newborn in a toilet, but MOST scared teenage mothers don't do that.

A pilot drinking on the job isn't relevant to the "hold to a higher standard than the rest of us" discussion. None of us are supposed to be drinking and operating a machine. The mechanic isn't supposed to be drinking while fixing the plane either, and he will get fired if caught, so no, the pilot is not held to any higher standard than the rest of us.

Anyone who breaks a law or gets caught abusing his/her power should be punished, no matter what position that person is in.

Click to expand...

Once again you fail to see the point. One last try: It is the degree of consequence that is relevant.

I can't help but notice you ignored the long list of other occupations.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely,

Bye.

Mr. Invisible said:

The police should be held to a higher standard due to the power dynamics as I stated earlier, especially due to the fact that they have the power to take the life of a person. For that alone even, I think they should be held to a higher standard.

Click to expand...

They also are putting their life on the line and their persons at risk far more than the average citizen, even other public servants, are expected, much less required, to do. I personally think that entitles them to some extra power to manage that. I don't see why they must be held to a higher moral standard than a surgeon or pharmacist or HVAC guy or bus driver or any number of other professionals who also hold the well being and sometimes life or death of people that they serve every day that they do their jobs.

tres borrachos said:

So do we, including in our biggest city here in NH (Manchester).

They get fired for on the job malfeasance, and off the job malfeasance.

Click to expand...

We just had one suspended and probably will be fired for dating a drug addict. She let her dealer in while the officer was not home and the dealer stole some of his guns, including his service weapon. I am sure if he "executed" someone in cold blood in the middle of the day, he would be fired by days end.

Mr. Invisible said:

The police should be held to a higher standard due to the power dynamics as I stated earlier, especially due to the fact that they have the power to take the life of a person. For that alone even, I think they should be held to a higher standard.

Click to expand...

Horse is out of the barn on that, they are already held to a higher standard and have been for just about forever.

Mr. Invisible said:

The police should be held to a higher standard due to the power dynamics as I stated earlier, especially due to the fact that they have the power to take the life of a person. For that alone even, I think they should be held to a higher standard.

Click to expand...

Your premise about "power" fails when looked at from a different view. Instead of a LE haveing the power to take a life. Subsitute an armed robber. The armed robber has the power to take your life. Should then any armed criminal be held to a higher standard? They can kill you.

Bottom line. LE should be held to the rules and standards the department has, the State laws and Federal Laws.
Much like a private citizen should be held to the laws and standards our country has established.

What was that quote by Votaire? "With great power comes great responsibility"

A higher standard than most people (the only option that was close was "than the rest of us", which isn't quite accurate).

Police are being granted a certain degree of authority by society, as such, the price of that additional authority is additional standards. If they do not wish to abide by that higher standard, then **** em. They should not be police officers if they are afraid to be held to a higher standard. Pick a different job.

One problem I have noticed is that a significant proportion people who become police officers do so because they want that extra power. The authority. It attracts many good, altruistic people that wish to serve and protect, but it also attracts a lot of ****ing entitled douchebags. The fact of the matter is that you can often tell that someone is a cop or wants to be a cop without ever seeing their badge. There's a certain entitled douchiness that some cops exude from themselves like an asshole exudes stink.

These are the cops that give good cops a problem. These douchebags should never be given a badge, because they aren't fit to have one. The problem is, the people who should be arguing for this the most (the majority of cops who are not douchebags) tend to go toward the knee-jerk defense of one of "their own" rather than calling for an improvement to the standards by which their coworkers are hired.

Hard Truth said:

Actually, history shows that people with enough power will abuse it if they are not held accountable.

“Abuse of power comes as no surprise” Jenny Holzer

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, historian 1897

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" William Pitt the Elder, 1770

Click to expand...

Nice quotes, but they don't show anything different than what I said.

Fearandloathing said:

Once again you fail to see the point. One last try: It is the degree of consequence that is relevant.

I can't help but notice you ignored the long list of other occupations.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely,

Bye.

Click to expand...

"Bye"? Is that the "I'm getting the last word here" thing? Okay.

Here's my last word. I didn't "ignore" the long list of other occupations. I didn't feel like correcting you on them as I did on the pilot thing. But since you mentioned it, the Captain going down with the ship is maritime law, same as "women and children first". What does it have to do with cops?

CRUE CAB said:

We just had one suspended and probably will be fired for dating a drug addict. She let her dealer in while the officer was not home and the dealer stole some of his guns, including his service weapon. I am sure if he "executed" someone in cold blood in the middle of the day, he would be fired by days end.

Click to expand...

The standard procedure after a police shooting, no matter the circumstance, is to put the officer involved on paid leave for the six months* or more it takes for his/her co-workers to do an investigation. Then, after the investigation, a secret meeting or hearing is held by his/her superiors and 98% of the time the shooting is determined to be justified due to the circumstances and the officer can return to their normal duties.

*In some cases they are reassigned to do office work.

tres borrachos said:

Nice quotes, but they don't show anything different than what I said.

Click to expand...

Wrong. You wrote "You will always find people who abuse power. MOST don't. ..."

I am saying that most people will abuse their power if they have enough of it and are not effectively held accountable. Having power changes people.

Hard Truth said:

Wrong. You wrote "You will always find people who abuse power. MOST don't. ..."

I am saying that most people will abuse their power if they have enough of it and are not effectively held accountable. Having power changes people.

Click to expand...

MOST people abuse their power? Kindly back that up please, and not with quotes from William Penn, but with stats.

Judges have power. Show me something that proves that MOST of them abuse it.
Cops have power. Show me something that proves that MOST of the 900,000+ cops in this country abuse their power.

tres borrachos said:

MOST people abuse their power? Kindly back that up please, and not with quotes from William Penn, but with stats.

Judges have power. Show me something that proves that MOST of them abuse it.
Cops have power. Show me something that proves that MOST of the 900,000+ cops in this country abuse their power.

Click to expand...

Most people will abuse their power if they have enough of it and are not effectively held accountable. Judges and cops in the USA are held accountable to at least some extent. Dictators are not. Name a dictator that didn't abuse his power. When cops are not held accountable for their actions with sufficient effectiveness they will start abusing their power. It is human nature to do so. That is why certain police departments had so many bad cops at certain periods of time (ie. Philadelphia, LA, Oakland at various times*), it was caused by poor leadership and lack of accountability.

*also in many unstable, impoverished and/or politically corrupt places throughout the world