View Poll Results: Is Ferguson about...

Voters
110. You may not vote on this poll
  • Racism

    17 15.45%
  • Police injustice

    23 20.91%
  • Cultural differences

    12 10.91%
  • Class Warfare

    13 11.82%
  • Crazy people

    50 45.45%
  • All the above

    31 28.18%
  • Other

    17 15.45%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Ferguson

  1. #111
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Where were you taught that? Where were cops taught that? Have any evidence? BS. That is not what people are taught at all, unless they are in a gang.
    I went thru training with the St. Louis police dept and NYPD for my ranger training in those cities for one thing.

    And that is what most self-defense training (which includes remaining within the law) teaches as well.

    It is indeed what is taught. Where is the logic in stopping if the person is still a threat to you or bystanders? This isnt TV. The legal standard for shooting is very high and presumes you only do so to stop a lethal threat, gross bodily harm, commission of a felony, etc. In that case, you dont stop just to 'give the other guy a fighting chance at life.' The presumption is that they are still the same lethal threat until they are immobile, unconscious, dead, or completely submissive.

    Police are actually reprimanded if they 'shoot to wound' btw in many cases. Because again...if the threat was lethal to begin with, you risk your life and the public safety if your 'more difficult shot' misses.

    That is why police and citizens are also taught to go for the largest possible target: center of mass, COM, the chest.

    http://www.littletongazette.com/Octo...C_Academy.html
    http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/siren...t-stop-threat/
    http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Saf...ll-or-to-stop/
    "More than 700,000 law enforcement officers currently working in the United States have been given this or similar instructions in the academy"
    http://ccjatraining.com/articles/Sho...ptheThreat.pdf
    http://howtosurviveit.com/shoot-to-stop/

    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...at-page-2.html
    Last edited by Lursa; 08-18-14 at 06:04 PM. Reason: added links
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #112
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    Re: Ferguson

    No, I don't accept that. A) I don't think cops are trained to shoot to injure. B) I'm pretty sure they're trained to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. The autopsy supports a narrative of the cop shooting him in the arm first and then when that failed to stop him, popped him in the head.

    A cop's first priority is to protect himself. When interacting with the police, its important to know that your best interest is not necessarily his priority.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    If he was shot 6 times standing up it would be no better. If a police officer is trying to apprehend someone and force like that is required, a few shots to the legs will do the trick. You have to at least admit that shooting someone so many times is generally not an acceptable thing for a police officer to do.

  3. #113
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    The autopsy did not determine that the officer was being charged. And as the doctor performing it noted:

    "The bullets did not appear to have been shot from very close range because no gunpowder was present on his body."

    "“In my capacity as the forensic examiner for the New York State Police, I would say, ‘You’re not supposed to shoot so many times,’ ” said Dr. Baden"

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us...imes.html?_r=0
    I never said that the autopsy determined that the officer was being charged. I said that the officer was being charged because of a statement heard in the media the other day, giving the officer's version of what happened.

    As far as Michael Baden, I appreciate his work as a Medical Examiner, as he is foremost in his field. However, he has no right or authority to say what the officer should or should not have done, until he was in his shoes. Can't imagine, as an ME, he has too many opportunities to be fired upon by a suspect fleeing a robbery.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I went thru training with the St. Louis police dept and NYPD for my ranger training in those cities for one thing.

    And that is what most self-defense training (which includes remaining within the law) teaches as well.

    It is indeed what is taught. Where is the logic in stopping if the person is still a threat to you or bystanders? This isnt TV. The legal standard for shooting is very high and presumes you only do so to stop a lethal threat, gross bodily harm, commission of a felony, etc. In that case, you dont stop just to 'give the other guy a fighting chance at life.' The presumption is that they are still the same lethal threat until they are immobile, unconscious, dead, or completely submissive.

    Police are actually reprimanded if they 'shoot to wound' btw in many cases. Because again...if the threat was lethal to begin with, you risk your life and the public safety if your 'more difficult shot' misses.

    That is why police and citizens are also taught to go for the largest possible target: center of mass, COM, the chest.
    Please show me the evidence that cops are encouraged to shoot to kill rather than shoot to wound in all circumstances.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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  5. #115
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by TobyOne View Post
    No, I don't accept that. A) I don't think cops are trained to shoot to injure. B) I'm pretty sure they're trained to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. The autopsy supports a narrative of the cop shooting him in the arm first and then when that failed to stop him, popped him in the head.

    A cop's first priority is to protect himself. When interacting with the police, its important to know that your best interest is not necessarily his priority.
    The autopsy report does not determine after being shot in the arm the guy was still a threat. You are just assuming that.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  6. #116
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Please show me the evidence that cops are encouraged to shoot to kill rather than shoot to wound in all circumstances.
    No one said all circumstances but shooting to wound is never ever taught to my knowlege.

    Please see my previous post, I added links and you can find explanations.

    And btw, I never said 'shoot to kill', it's 'shoot to stop the threat.' Nothing about killing. I even pointed that out in my previous post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #117
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Please show me the evidence that cops are encouraged to shoot to kill rather than shoot to wound in all circumstances.
    My husband was a cop for 20 years, and he was always told that you never pick up your gun unless you are prepared to use it. Cops are trained to shoot at the largest body mass, which is the torso. You can't aim to shoot smaller masses, because when you are in a situation to have to fire upon a suspect, you are under an extreme amount of stress. Most shootings are instantaneous. It's not like you have 5 minutes to stand there and try to determine the best place to shoot. When you are in that kind of situation, you do what you are trained to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky
    It's easy to be a Conservative, until you need help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal
    After years of condemning Bill Clinton for being a rapist, Republicans apparently changed their minds about the whole thing and elected one of their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen
    Fox News knows their audience. Nuance and facts aren't why they tune in.

  8. #118
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    Re: Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    I never said that the autopsy determined that the officer was being charged. I said that the officer was being charged because of a statement heard in the media the other day, giving the officer's version of what happened.

    As far as Michael Baden, I appreciate his work as a Medical Examiner, as he is foremost in his field. However, he has no right or authority to say what the officer should or should not have done, until he was in his shoes. Can't imagine, as an ME, he has too many opportunities to be fired upon by a suspect fleeing a robbery.
    And other statements said the opposite, so assuming the officer was being charged is not a fair assumption to make.

    I do not have to be in the shoes of a terrorist to say that their actions are wrong, nor does Michael Baden have to be in the shoes of the cop to say that shooting somebody 6 times is generally wrong. Michael Baden has seen tons of bodies, many the result of police shootings. He has far more authority to judge how many times an officer is generally supposed to shoot than you or I.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

  9. #119
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    Re: Ferguson

    I'm making no assumptions, I'm just saying what narrative the evidence supports.

    Also, here is a summary of the LAPDs policy on lethal force. I'm guessing that the po po in Missouri probably have a similar one:

    LAPD officers’ use of force is concise, consistent with prevailing law, and based on best police practices. Officers are permitted to use force that is objectively reasonable to defend themselves or others, to effect an arrest or detention, and/or to prevent escape or overcome resistance,” Izen said. “Officers are taught to evaluate a suspect’s behavior, the severity of the crime a suspect is committing or about to commit, and whether it is reasonable to conclude that the suspect’s behavior might cause serious injury to an officer or another person.

    “If a suspect’s behavior is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death, an officer can, by law and under LAPD policy, use deadly force,” Izen added. “In using deadly force, officers can fire their weapons only to stop deadly threats to keep themselves and the public safe, and can continue to fire until the threat has ended.”



    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    The autopsy report does not determine after being shot in the arm the guy was still a threat. You are just assuming that.

  10. #120
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    Re: Ferguson

    Thank god we can double vote.

    Police injustice + racism

    Both were tied to the reason why the Ferguson protest started (Protest will refer to the protest and not any subsequent riots)
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