View Poll Results: What of the following does the best for eliminating poverty in the world?

Voters
1003. You may not vote on this poll
  • Private property.

    55 5.48%
  • Unions.

    315 31.41%
  • Personal liberty.

    69 6.88%
  • Entitlements.

    403 40.18%
  • Taxation

    463 46.16%
  • Freedom from coercion/association.

    52 5.18%
  • Government programs/policies.

    410 40.88%
  • The free market.

    79 7.88%
  • Class struggle.

    14 1.40%
  • Working for oneself.

    59 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: How is poverty best eliminated?

  1. #471
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You built it...but not by yourself. The taxpayers helped you build it by paying for the education of your employees, by paying for the police and fire protection that are crucial to your business, by paying for the roads and sidewalks that provide access to your business, by paying for all the myriad pieces of infrastructure that your business couldn't do without.

    When Obama said "you didn't build it", he meant "you didn't build it by yourself". And you didn't.
    He meant the business owner can't take any credit for it and the business owner owes his success to government. He has made that crystal clear in all the history we have with him. And it is pure malarkey and evidence of how out of touch he is with reality in what makes an economy work.

    Yes, the social contract allows us all to be more efficient, effective, and practical than we can do by each person providing all his own infrastructure. But each and every one of us who work in the private sector make those taxes possible, make those schools possible, who wanted those roads and sidewalks and street lights and VOTED for the bonds that made them possible. If we had not been willing to take the risks, to contribute our vision and abilities and skill sets to provide for ourselves, then there would have been far less resources for those schools or roads or sidewalks. We would exist and do what we have to do to survive without government. Government cannot exist without us.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #472
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    He meant the business owner can't take any credit for it and the business owner owes his success to government. He has made that crystal clear in all the history we have with him. And it is pure malarkey and evidence of how out of touch he is with reality in what makes an economy work.

    Yes, the social contract allows us all to be more efficient, effective, and practical than we can do by each person providing all his own infrastructure. But each and every one of us who work in the private sector make those taxes possible, make those schools possible, who wanted those roads and sidewalks and street lights and VOTED for the bonds that made them possible. If we had not been willing to take the risks, to contribute our vision and abilities and skill sets to provide for ourselves, then there would have been far less resources for those schools or roads or sidewalks. We would exist and do what we have to do to survive without government. Government cannot exist without us.
    "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

    So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together."

    Yea...Get em Albq
    Men do what they have to when they want to, Great men do what they have to, even when they don't want to.

  3. #473
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    He meant the business owner can't take any credit for it and the business owner owes his success to government. He has made that crystal clear in all the history we have with him. And it is pure malarkey and evidence of how out of touch he is with reality in what makes an economy work.

    Yes, the social contract allows us all to be more efficient, effective, and practical than we can do by each person providing all his own infrastructure. But each and every one of us who work in the private sector make those taxes possible, make those schools possible, who wanted those roads and sidewalks and street lights and VOTED for the bonds that made them possible. If we had not been willing to take the risks, to contribute our vision and abilities and skill sets to provide for ourselves, then there would have been far less resources for those schools or roads or sidewalks. We would exist and do what we have to do to survive without government. Government cannot exist without us.
    And your whole second paragraph is a wonderful example of the old saying, "one hand washes the other". Yes, you can survive without government, but that's what you would be doing: "surviving"...and that's about it. Yes, government cannot exist without the people...but the people as a whole cannot truly prosper without some form of government. Again, one hand washes the other.

    That's also why I've said many times that high taxes are the price of admission to a first-world nation. If you want the benefits and privileges of living in a first-world nation, then you've got to be willing to pay the taxes and follow the laws and regulations that enable that first-world nation to reach and maintain the status of a first-world nation.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #474
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    To FruityFact and GlenContrarian,

    Nobody suggests that the social contract doesn't benefit all. Of course it does. Just as each of us looking to our own self interests benefits all. But good government follows society, enterprise, and commerce. It does not create it.

    Here is how it works:

    A farmer or rancher stakes out a claim on an undeveloped tract of land. The central government, formed by the people for the benefit of the people, establishes the rules by which the claim can be staked out and secures the farmer/rancher's right to hold and have that land.

    So the farmer/rancher builds his house and barn from timber he cuts or sod he forms into mud walls. He plows the ground to grow food. He builds his corrals to contain livestock. He digs his own well or utilizes whatever surface water is available on his property. His wagon beats down the natural foliage to create a road of sorts when he needs to go elsewhere to buy or barter for supplies or equipment. He is wholly self contained and wholly free, beholden to nobody and beneficiary of the fruit of his own labor.

    Then another family moves in on other land in the area and then another and then another until there is a sizable group of families. Some enterprising person sees a market in this increasing population and puts in a general store that buys and sells produce from the neighboring farms and offers goods, supplies, tools, and equipment on faith that the farmers and ranchers will buy from him instead of making the long trip to the nearest city. Somebody else puts in a blacksmith and repair shop. Somebody else a cafe. And so on until a town is springing up amidst all those previously unrelated farms and ranches. And when the business grows so that employees are needed, those employees build houses to live in and work for the proprietors in the town instead of on the land. When all the new septic systems begin to threaten the water supply, it makes sense for everybody to join together to form a water coop, then electrical coop, a common sewer system. To be able to get fire insurance, they form a volunteer fire department and hire somebody to provide security for their properties. And eventually it makes sense to build a school that all will share and elect a mayor and have a city clerk who can provide useful paper work and record keeping they once had to travel long distances to get. And the people vote to build roads and street lights and sidewalks that they will share and contribute their taxes to maintain.

    Every step of the way, everybody is looking to his/her own interests but by cooperating with each other, they benefit themselves and everybody else.

    So yes, each of us can look to our parents, role models, great teachers, the guy who took a chance on us and gave us our first job, etc. etc. etc. as all part of who and what we are. And each and every one of us in some way has benefitted somebody else. To say that we are beholden to government for who and what we are is simply absurd. Government is and should be beholden to each and every one of us for its very existence.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #475
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    So yes, each of us can look to our parents, role models, great teachers, the guy who took a chance on us and gave us our first job, etc. etc. etc. as all part of who and what we are. And each and every one of us in some way has benefitted somebody else. To say that we are beholden to government for who and what we are is simply absurd. Government is and should be beholden to each and every one of us for its very existence.
    And, in fact, they are. If all of the people stop supporting the government, the government stops existing, you cannot have a government if none of the people pay it any heed. However, so long as the people do, in general, support the government, they do not rise up to overthrow it or elect people to go to Washington to change it, then the government has a significant amount of power, at the behest of the people. The people have the power. If they choose not to exercise it, it remains the fault of the people, not the government.

    And in your example, if a big powerful group comes to town and says "we have more guns and more power than you do, therefore we're just taking all of your land", of course you have to rely on the government and the power that the government wields, to save the day. After all, they're the ones who recorded your ownership of the land and your right to work it, they're the one with the military or the law enforcement agents who can come and tell that big powerful group what to go do with itself. Individuals do not have that ability, it is only through the collective decision of society and it's legal arm, the government, that the peace can be kept and wrongs, as described above, can be righted. There's got to be a balance between anarchy, which doesn't work, and totalitarianism, which doesn't work.
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  6. #476
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And, in fact, they are. If all of the people stop supporting the government, the government stops existing, you cannot have a government if none of the people pay it any heed. However, so long as the people do, in general, support the government, they do not rise up to overthrow it or elect people to go to Washington to change it, then the government has a significant amount of power, at the behest of the people. The people have the power. If they choose not to exercise it, it remains the fault of the people, not the government.

    And in your example, if a big powerful group comes to town and says "we have more guns and more power than you do, therefore we're just taking all of your land", of course you have to rely on the government and the power that the government wields, to save the day. After all, they're the ones who recorded your ownership of the land and your right to work it, they're the one with the military or the law enforcement agents who can come and tell that big powerful group what to go do with itself. Individuals do not have that ability, it is only through the collective decision of society and it's legal arm, the government, that the peace can be kept and wrongs, as described above, can be righted. There's got to be a balance between anarchy, which doesn't work, and totalitarianism, which doesn't work.
    In my view, the only role of government for a free people is to recognize and secure our unalienable rights, and that would include providing the common defense. But again, if there is to be liberty, the people assign the government the power and authority it will have. It was not intended to be the other way around.

    And again when you go to your job every morning or when I open up my store or whatever to do business, neither of us are likely doing that for the benefit of humankind or to better society. We each are doing that to increase our own bank account so that we can buy groceries, pay the rent or mortgage, make the car payment, or whatever it is that we need. But in doing that, we are benefitting humankind and bettering the society we live in and indirectly enabling many others to increase their bank accounts so that they can provide for their own needs.

    This is the concept that Barack Obama, and apparently most who identify as progressives, simply don't get. They think we should all be beholden to a nation that provides us with what we have and we should contribute a huge percentage of our money in taxes for the common good. And some would see that a demand that everybody look to everybody else's interests as just another form of slavery. When it comes to free enterprise, each and every one of us 'built that' and not one of us should feel obligated to somebody else just because that somebody else was doing what he/she needed to do to put supper on the table.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 12-30-14 at 01:30 PM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #477
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    1. Get rid of the social-welfare programs--all of them.

    2. Lower and simplify taxes. Eliminate regulations. Get government out of the way of the free market.

  8. #478
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter View Post
    1. Get rid of the social-welfare programs--all of them.

    2. Lower and simplify taxes. Eliminate regulations. Get government out of the way of the free market.
    Agreed.

  9. #479
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter View Post
    1. Get rid of the social-welfare programs--all of them.

    2. Lower and simplify taxes. Eliminate regulations. Get government out of the way of the free market.
    How would that get rid of poverty?
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  10. #480
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Here's an idea that I think people on the left and right can support: basic income. It would eliminate welfare programs and replace them with a direct cash transfer to every American with no exceptions. I recommend everyone who has the time should read up on it but if there is enough interest I'll assemble a big long post summarizing basic income.

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