View Poll Results: What of the following does the best for eliminating poverty in the world?

Voters
1003. You may not vote on this poll
  • Private property.

    55 5.48%
  • Unions.

    315 31.41%
  • Personal liberty.

    69 6.88%
  • Entitlements.

    403 40.18%
  • Taxation

    463 46.16%
  • Freedom from coercion/association.

    52 5.18%
  • Government programs/policies.

    410 40.88%
  • The free market.

    79 7.88%
  • Class struggle.

    14 1.40%
  • Working for oneself.

    59 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: How is poverty best eliminated?

  1. #461
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    What works best to eliminate poverty?
    Some thoughts...

    1) I don't think poverty can ever be "eliminated". Primarily because, to some degree, it's a relative measure. For example, if we say below $20K/yr is poverty, when everybody reaches $20K/yr the new threshold will be $40K/yr. There will always be people who do better than other people, and not necessarily through any fault of their own.

    2) Piggy-backing on #1, for some people it will be through fault of their own. They simply don't want to put forth the effort to do better. They're satisfied with what they have.

    3) For the most part rising above poverty is an individual task. Leave people alone and let them do it. Government *can* help, but only in a limited sense, and certainly not to the degree of alleged help we see our government(s) doing now.
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  2. #462
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Poverty is not necessarily a lack of money. Poverty, as it is generally understood, is the lack of food, clothing, shelter and necessities of life. If you have all the money in the world and have not sufficient food, clothing, or shelter to sustain your life and have no way to obtain these, you are poorer than the church mouse who has all that he needs.
    Money is a store of wealth and facilitates trade. Meaning that in a sense it is one in the same as food, clothing and shelter.

    If you're in a situation where money is not readily convertible into sufficient food, clothing or shelter; that's much more of a structural problem than it is a problem of poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    When personal liberty, free markets, and freedom from coercion promotes the production of food, clothing, shelter--necessities of life--then much more poverty will be eliminated than can ever happen by taking from those who earned what they have and giving it to those who did not earn it.
    Developed countries are already free and we still have poverty within them. So unless we can get to 120% freedom, I skeptical of believing that much more poverty will be eliminated by tooting lofty principles.
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  3. #463
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, brothern. There are more whites living in poverty in this country than any other group, blacks included. To assume that it is a racial thing which only affects blacks is incorrect, since it is probably more accurate to state that since there are more whites than blacks in this country, it is statistically more likely that the percentage of whites living in poverty is greater than any other group, which happens to be true.
    Hi polgara. I'm not sure I've made a point on race yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Secondly, how could anyone ensure that everyone has wealth? If that were possible, it would have been done long ago. There are only five ways that I can think of to have wealth 1) earn it by working and investing wisely; 2) inherit it; 3) steal it; 4) come up with a new product that everyone wants or needs, ie become an entrepreneur and/or an inventor, or 5) win the lottery. Of the five, the first choice is most likely for the majority of people, no matter what color you are, which means you do not drop out of school, and you go on to college to get a higher education - or you go to school to learn a trade like plumber, electrician, etc, or you are skilled enough to become sports star. It is being responsible for your own life choices - nothing more.
    Encouraging a fairer distribution of wealth, while ensuring that economic incentives and personal liberties are not compromised. We're already heading in that direction: most countries have progressive income taxes, social safety net programs and other economic protections in place like labor laws. It's just unfortunate that the world has had a plethora of historical problems that have influenced today's standing.

    So, for an example, this problem with our decreasing real wages. Over the past decade or two, the real wage (or the "inflation-adjusted") wage of many professions has decreased. Meaning that when you adjust for inflation your typical HR professional made MORE money in 1990 than a comparable HR professional did in 2010. And that's because at the macro level companies have been very effective at convincing mid-level and low-level employees to take cuts to their paycheck. How that's going to be solved is yet to be seen.
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  4. #464
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    A leftist thing? No. Poverty is caused by not having money ... that's it.

    The cure for poverty is, would you believe it, ensuring that everyone has wealth. Obviously poverty is then complicated and entrenched by how the lack of wealth causes instability in the affected communities and families; and how it likewise destabilizes individuals' lives (e.g. not being able to afford healthcare = higher susceptibility to disease / work disabilities ) which leads to the cyclical effect of poverty.

    Regardless options in the poll like "personal liberty" or "freedom from coercion/association" or "free markets" while being vitally important for our freedoms, have absolutely nothing to do with eliminating poverty, because they don't address the root cause of poverty: the lack of wealth.
    "everyone has wealth' - I equate that to a fully employed populace, that'd be full time employment, each contributing the maximum value possible in each of their roles to net the greatest compensation that the role that's being filled, i.e. everyone making as much money as they possibly can.

    Too bad that's it's little more than just a pipe dream. There are far too many people who'd much rather turn to crime or game the system, or are satisfied with the existence possible by just sitting and having their hand out.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

  5. #465
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    That's a great story. However what is the actual evidence there? Such as, for example, a rigorous and systematic study to measure the quantified effectiveness of the colonies' different economic structures and its broader impact on each households’ behavior? Willy Bradford would have never in his dreams been able to produce such evidence-based arguments. So how can we actually trust his conclusions, when they very well could be based on faulty premises like tradition, anecdotes, conventional wisdom or confirmation biases?

    Obviously that's not an argument for communal agrarianism, but it is an argument for doing what is actually proven. Show the evidence. If communal agrarianism had produced the best results beyond whatever Bradford had against it, why not do it?

    Second -- I'm not sure what communal farming has to do with eliminating poverty.


    Pragmatism. As in, do you know how the extreme poverty Millennium Development Goal is being solved right now?

    Countries are implementing safety net programs ("welfare") and putting in place directed programs like conditional cash transfers, where impoverished families are receiving money from the government or NGOs. These programs aren't a panacea for poverty, but they've been shown to be effective by both tackling the lack of wealth (giving money) and the conditions that prevent wealth accumulation (on the condition of regular school attendance).

    Take a read: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I..._noembargo.pdf
    If you didn't learn how to eliminate poverty from the story, then I can't help you understand. But we have seen this story repeated again and again. China's economy was stalled and regressing until its leadership adopted a new policy of allowing its people to keep much more of what they earned and to prosper according to the effort they put in. It is still far far from being the United States, but we have witnessed a booming Chinese economy purely because the people are allowed to profit from their labor.

    We have seen the profit motive taken away in other countries--think Iron Curtain--with the result of flailing economies and far more poverty.

    I know that many think everything would be much more perfect if the wealth was just more equally distributed, but this theory can be supported by very little in history and human experience.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #466
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Seeing that people who want a job have a job.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  7. #467
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Seeing that people who want a job have a job.
    And go with the Biblical principle of "He who will not work, let him not eat."

    Actually it is not the job of government to provide a job for everybody who wants a job. The only way the government can do that is to draw resources from the economy in order to pay somebody for work that did not have to get done. It should be the role of government to oversee the infrastructure and oversee business-friendly policy and regulation that needs to be in place for all to effectively start up, grow, and prosper in their various private enterprises. That is how an energetic economy is created and that in turn produces jobs for those who want them. Full employment in the private sector prospers everybody, encourages entrepreneurship, increases wages and benefits, and benefits all.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #468
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    And go with the Biblical principle of "He who will not work, let him not eat."

    Actually it is not the job of government to provide a job for everybody who wants a job. The only way the government can do that is to draw resources from the economy in order to pay somebody for work that did not have to get done. It should be the role of government to oversee the infrastructure and oversee business-friendly policy and regulation that needs to be in place for all to effectively start up, grow, and prosper in their various private enterprises. That is how an energetic economy is created and that in turn produces jobs for those who want them. Full employment in the private sector prospers everybody, encourages entrepreneurship, increases wages and benefits, and benefits all.
    Indeed. Just that so many seem to believe that government that is the be all and do all for jobs, when in fact it most certainly is not. The private sector.

    And then they further don't seem to appreciate how much blood, sweat and tears goes into the business, and how uncertainty pretty much freezes business into a state of making no decisions, or at least very conservative decisions, neither of which typically grows the business.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

  9. #469
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Indeed. Just that so many seem to believe that government that is the be all and do all for jobs, when in fact it most certainly is not. The private sector.

    And then they further don't seem to appreciate how much blood, sweat and tears goes into the business, and how uncertainty pretty much freezes business into a state of making no decisions, or at least very conservative decisions, neither of which typically grows the business.
    As a small business owner, I, with a clear conscience, can say that I absolutely built that. As can every other entrepreneur who took a idea to fill a need and started up a business. Or those who borrowed or risked pretty much everything they had to buy and grow an existing business. A relatively small percentage of the population has the vision, temperament, skill sets, and/or comfort in risk taking to do that, and the rest are more comfortable with security in a steady pay check and benefits when they sell their labor, creativity, work ethic, and skill set to the highest bidder for those assets. Both are honorable and necessary in order for a vigorous economy to exist.

    The government serves best who follows the growing economy and provides the laws and regulation necessary to help it grow. The government doesn't build the infrastructure--the people do that as it is needed and with the money they earn by their own efforts--the government is charged to oversee and coordinate the effort. So when our fearless leader presumes to tell us that 'we didn't build that' he is speaking as one who has never owned or managed a business and one who has never held a paying job in the private sector. We did build that--each and every one of us--by getting ourselves out of bed in the morning and going to work to provide for our own needs and wants and thereby benefitting the whole.

    The only way for the poor to become unpoor is to make a place in the economy for them to join in and provide for their own needs. When government hand outs look more inviting than does getting themselves out of bed in the morning and working to provide for their own needs, the government encourages and advances what we call poverty much more than it alleviates it. And the more the poor are encouraged to remain poor, the less opportunity there will be for them to become unpoor.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #470
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    As a small business owner, I, with a clear conscience, can say that I absolutely built that. As can every other entrepreneur who took a idea to fill a need and started up a business. Or those who borrowed or risked pretty much everything they had to buy and grow an existing business. A relatively small percentage of the population has the vision, temperament, skill sets, and/or comfort in risk taking to do that, and the rest are more comfortable with security in a steady pay check and benefits when they sell their labor, creativity, work ethic, and skill set to the highest bidder for those assets. Both are honorable and necessary in order for a vigorous economy to exist.

    The government serves best who follows the growing economy and provides the laws and regulation necessary to help it grow. The government doesn't build the infrastructure--the people do that as it is needed and with the money they earn by their own efforts--the government is charged to oversee and coordinate the effort. So when our fearless leader presumes to tell us that 'we didn't build that' he is speaking as one who has never owned or managed a business and one who has never held a paying job in the private sector. We did build that--each and every one of us--by getting ourselves out of bed in the morning and going to work to provide for our own needs and wants and thereby benefitting the whole.

    The only way for the poor to become unpoor is to make a place in the economy for them to join in and provide for their own needs. When government hand outs look more inviting than does getting themselves out of bed in the morning and working to provide for their own needs, the government encourages and advances what we call poverty much more than it alleviates it.
    You built it...but not by yourself. The taxpayers helped you build it by paying for the education of your employees, by paying for the police and fire protection that are crucial to your business, by paying for the roads and sidewalks that provide access to your business, by paying for all the myriad pieces of infrastructure that your business couldn't do without.

    When Obama said "you didn't build it", he meant "you didn't build it by yourself". And you didn't.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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