View Poll Results: What of the following does the best for eliminating poverty in the world?

Voters
1003. You may not vote on this poll
  • Private property.

    55 5.48%
  • Unions.

    315 31.41%
  • Personal liberty.

    69 6.88%
  • Entitlements.

    403 40.18%
  • Taxation

    463 46.16%
  • Freedom from coercion/association.

    52 5.18%
  • Government programs/policies.

    410 40.88%
  • The free market.

    79 7.88%
  • Class struggle.

    14 1.40%
  • Working for oneself.

    59 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: How is poverty best eliminated?

  1. #421
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and putting them where? The state is usually no better if not worse.
    I quite agree. But what choice is there, unless YOU know of some way to get all or the majority of parents to be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are free to wonder it. However the success or failure of a childs' parents at forming a stable family is (by all we are able to measure) the most dominating determinant.
    I think the key is stability and support, not necessarily family.

    Obviously family being stable and supportive is the best solution, but that simply isn't possible in all cases, so relying on it exclusively seems inadvisable.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #422
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I quite agree. But what choice is there, unless YOU know of some way to get all or the majority of parents to be better?
    I'm not about to allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I would strip away current disincentives for family formation, and replace them with positive incentives as best I could. Ultimately this isn't a political problem - it's a social one, that spills into the realm of politics.

    I think the key is stability and support, not necessarily family.
    From a social science standpoint that's like saying that it isn't so much breathing that's important, it's getting oxygen into your system. Family is the greatest vehicle for creating a stable and supportive life for a child.

    Obviously family being stable and supportive is the best solution, but that simply isn't possible in all cases, so relying on it exclusively seems inadvisable.
    Sure and that's why we have such things as orphanages.

  3. #423
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm not about to allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good. I would strip away current disincentives for family formation, and replace them with positive incentives as best I could. Ultimately this isn't a political problem - it's a social one, that spills into the realm of politics.
    Seems reasonable, but the specifics will be where contention arises, I suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    From a social science standpoint that's like saying that it isn't so much breathing that's important, it's getting oxygen into your system. Family is the greatest vehicle for creating a stable and supportive life for a child.
    Agreed.

    But as the point appears to be that "family" isn't doing it's assigned tasks correctly, and I suspect any measures to improve matters in that area may take decades, some kind of stopgap measure must be used.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure and that's why we have such things as orphanages.
    Depending how they are run, that may help.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  4. #424
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Not only did California increase auto fees, the also have the highest state gasoline "taxes" in the country. The list goes on an on. You are wise to let it be.

    The thing is GC, I just don't buy into the Red State/Blue State comparison whatsoever. We are one country. Each state has it's resources and it's position. Some are rural and need more than others to support federally mandated expenses . Some are extremely urban, and generate tremendous revenues without a corresponding need for federal revenue in return. Others a combination.

    Who pays more, and who gets more is not a reflection of political party defined by the last election cycle. One could be a red state with big cities dominating the political landscape and voting blue. Who cares? It's not a meaningful measure of anything important other than to try and say "we are better than you" based on an always changing political landscape.
    Really? That's your defense? To pretend that there's no screamingly obvious difference in the standards of living between urban blue states and rural red states, no matter how much hard data you're shown?

    I suppose I shouldn't be surprised - all the hard data in the world can't change your mind on AGW, either.

    And btw, if you'll recall, I have NEVER said (or even implied), "we're better than you", but instead pointed out that it is NOT, repeat NOT conservative governance that directly causes rural red states to have such an obviously lower standard of living, but the fact that they are rural states means that they are more conservative, and as such will elect more conservative candidates.

    That is NOT something that a "liberal shill" would say. That's something that someone would say if that someone were trying to find the real cause without pointing fingers at this or that person or group of persons.

    But if it's people who say "we're better than you" that really tick you off, then I suggest you take a gander at sites like Breitbart and Redstate et al, and see how many there are Absolutely Sure they are better than any liberal could possibly be. Okay? Please learn to be as cynical of your own side as you are of liberals.
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    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #425
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Really? That's your defense? To pretend that there's no screamingly obvious difference in the standards of living between urban blue states and rural red states, no matter how much hard data you're shown?

    I suppose I shouldn't be surprised - all the hard data in the world can't change your mind on AGW, either.

    And btw, if you'll recall, I have NEVER said (or even implied), "we're better than you", but instead pointed out that it is NOT, repeat NOT conservative governance that directly causes rural red states to have such an obviously lower standard of living, but the fact that they are rural states means that they are more conservative, and as such will elect more conservative candidates.

    That is NOT something that a "liberal shill" would say. That's something that someone would say if that someone were trying to find the real cause without pointing fingers at this or that person or group of persons.

    But if it's people who say "we're better than you" that really tick you off, then I suggest you take a gander at sites like Breitbart and Redstate et al, and see how many there are Absolutely Sure they are better than any liberal could possibly be. Okay? Please learn to be as cynical of your own side as you are of liberals.

    I didn't offer a defense. I wrote that it's a bogus Progressive Meme. Again, the Red State Blue State issue is dead. It's an invented Progressive Maching meme that is full of rediculous conclusions, causations, and downright twisted thinking that only those desperate to draw some kind of Enlightened vs. redneck biblethunper conclusion use it.

    If one looks at the history of states over decades, the colors can and do switch. If one looks at how these colors are assigned, it's based on recent elections, which is a stupid and meaningless way to then go on to make the claims Progressives are attempting to make.

    Drop it with me. I reject the comparison. The Red State/Blue State meme is nothing but a fabricated Progressive Meme that has no meaningful use. Put R Vs. D meme in the desperation column.

  6. #426
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I didn't offer a defense. I wrote that it's a bogus Progressive Meme. Again, the Red State Blue State issue is dead. It's an invented Progressive Maching meme that is full of rediculous conclusions, causations, and downright twisted thinking that only those desperate to draw some kind of Enlightened vs. redneck biblethunper conclusion use it.

    If one looks at the history of states over decades, the colors can and do switch. If one looks at how these colors are assigned, it's based on recent elections, which is a stupid and meaningless way to then go on to make the claims Progressives are attempting to make.

    Drop it with me. I reject the comparison. The Red State/Blue State meme is nothing but a fabricated Progressive Meme that has no meaningful use. Put R Vs. D meme in the desperation column.
    Good morning, ocean515.

    There is a reason that red states generally are more successful - they tend to be more fiscally responsible, and attract like-minded people. A hard-working "redneck bible-thumping" laborer is not the guy who has time to riot and burn buildings to the ground - he's too busy minding his own business, because his success or failure is up to him. It does make sense, in a sad way, that those who have to depend on government to take care of them seem to be the most dissatisfied people in this country! This is the "utopia" that some are striving for?

    Job creation and business success can't be easy for companies to accomplish when they are "ruled and regulated" like they are today. We have sufficient laws on the books already to assure low pollution and clean water - now they are nitpicking to justify their own jobs! No wonder companies flee to other countries to survive - which leaves American workers jobless and on food stamps to survive! :

  7. #427
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Good morning, ocean515.

    There is a reason that red states generally are more successful - they tend to be more fiscally responsible, and attract like-minded people. A hard-working "redneck bible-thumping" laborer is not the guy who has time to riot and burn buildings to the ground - he's too busy minding his own business, because his success or failure is up to him. It does make sense, in a sad way, that those who have to depend on government to take care of them seem to be the most dissatisfied people in this country! This is the "utopia" that some are striving for?

    Job creation and business success can't be easy for companies to accomplish when they are "ruled and regulated" like they are today. We have sufficient laws on the books already to assure low pollution and clean water - now they are nitpicking to justify their own jobs! No wonder companies flee to other countries to survive - which leaves American workers jobless and on food stamps to survive! :
    Everyone should cringe when a new "agency" is created. They are staffed by people who see their mission as one to come up with more "solutions" to the "solutions" that have already been established. From my experience, these new solutions don't have to be better, they just have to "be" in order to justify the money spent creating them.

    This Red State/Blue State meme the Progressive Machine invented is so remarkably hypocritical that it's obvious the only purpose is to give the low-information citizens they attract some kind of basis for their support. For example, California is considered a solid Blue state, yet it is home to the highest poverty, as measured by todays standards, in the country. So what should be derived from that?

    For a political ideology that loves to talk about equality for the cultures of the world, it's remarkable how prejudice they are against cultures in their own country. Complete hypocrisy.

  8. #428
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    If one looks at the history of states over decades, the colors can and do switch. If one looks at how these colors are assigned, it's based on recent elections, which is a stupid and meaningless way to then go on to make the claims Progressives are attempting to make..
    PROVE IT. You made the assertion, so back it up. Urban areas are ALWAYS generally more educated, more prosperous than rural areas. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, urban areas - and the region surrounding those urban areas known todays as 'suburbs' - have always been generally more educated and more prosperous. This is true throughout ALL human history, in ALL cultures, in ALL nations.

    But you say this is not so, that it's some kind of red-state/blue-state meme when I told you already that it's not a matter of politics. So sit back and start digging to find proof that rural areas have EVER been generally more educated or more prosperous than urban areas.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #429
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    PROVE IT. You made the assertion, so back it up. Urban areas are ALWAYS generally more educated, more prosperous than rural areas. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, urban areas - and the region surrounding those urban areas known todays as 'suburbs' - have always been generally more educated and more prosperous. This is true throughout ALL human history, in ALL cultures, in ALL nations.

    But you say this is not so, that it's some kind of red-state/blue-state meme when I told you already that it's not a matter of politics. So sit back and start digging to find proof that rural areas have EVER been generally more educated or more prosperous than urban areas.
    Pffft. Please GC. You're inventing statments again. Nowhere have I made a statement that rural areas are populated by more educated people. So back off with the PROVE IT stuff.

    The bottom line is who cares? Of course Urban areas are populated by more educated people. Banking, business, etc., tend to be concentrated in urban areas, the suburbs surrounding them are typically populated by those who support those enterprises. Such things typically take more educational effort to be successful at.

    So, what the heck does that prove? Zero, nada, nothing.

    Stunning how Progressives use such absurd comparisons to hide their dismal results.

  10. #430
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Pffft. Please GC. You're inventing statments again. Nowhere have I made a statement that rural areas are populated by more educated people. So back off with the PROVE IT stuff.

    The bottom line is who cares? Of course Urban areas are populated by more educated people. Banking, business, etc., tend to be concentrated in urban areas, the suburbs surrounding them are typically populated by those who support those enterprises. Such things typically take more educational effort to be successful at.

    So, what the heck does that prove? Zero, nada, nothing.

    Stunning how Progressives use such absurd comparisons to hide their dismal results.
    What it DOES show - if you're half as objective as you seem to believe - is that urban areas are almost without exception MORE liberal than rural areas, and rural areas are almost without exception MORE conservative than urban areas. This is true all through human history, all over the planet.

    You also know that it's only since the early 1990's that the two parties began to really polarize into liberal or conservative. Even as late as the 80's, the GOP had some liberal politicians, and even right now there are still a very, very few conservative Democratic politicians. Whatever you want to claim about what states were red or blue or purple or whatever, the URBAN areas (and the suburban areas close to them) have almost always been more liberal than the RURAL areas, which are almost always more conservative.

    This isn't even a political argument - this is rather simple sociology. How it applies to politics is that because the two major parties have polarized into liberal and conservative, the Dems are now mostly representing those areas with a higher standard of living, and the GOP is now mostly representing those areas with a lower standard of living. That statement might tick you off...but at some level you know it's true.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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