View Poll Results: What of the following does the best for eliminating poverty in the world?

Voters
1003. You may not vote on this poll
  • Private property.

    55 5.48%
  • Unions.

    315 31.41%
  • Personal liberty.

    69 6.88%
  • Entitlements.

    403 40.18%
  • Taxation

    463 46.16%
  • Freedom from coercion/association.

    52 5.18%
  • Government programs/policies.

    410 40.88%
  • The free market.

    79 7.88%
  • Class struggle.

    14 1.40%
  • Working for oneself.

    59 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: How is poverty best eliminated?

  1. #411
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Per capita is a bogus measure, especially when one considers that California has the highest supplemental poverty rate in the nation. There is no reason to use cherry picked, hand selected spin to try to hang on to your ideological position. The issue is tax burden. Heck, there is a couple million illegal aliens living in California who have been welcomed with open arms by Progressives, so how do they count for anything?

    Consider this, I'm not adding in the massive fee burden that Progressive legislators have burdened citizen with in California. For example, how much does it cost to register a car in Washington? $60, $80/yr? In California, the same car could be $500/yr

    I'm done here. You're clutching at straws, you've presented bogus arguments, and you've not even taken the time to make sure the data you present is reasonable or relevant. You're demonstrating that all you're doing is going on a crazed search to find anything that even hints at backing your ideological position.

    The Red/State Blue state meme is a joke. If you need to be remain married to that, then by all means, clutch to it tightly. It's meaningless but obviously important to Progressives. (Just hope the next election cycle your Blue states stay blue, otherwise, the meme vaporizes, doesn't it?)

    Have a good day.
    Let's say for a moment that you're absolutely, 100% right about California. I strongly disagree, but let's go with that. What about the rest of the blue states who are doing quite well with much the same economic philosophy that California is adopting? Why are they not spiraling down to the economic dustbin of history?

    FYI, up until about 1998 or so, it cost $400/yr to register a car in Washington. We cut the cost way down...and at the same time raised the gasoline tax in order to pay for it IIRC.

    And did you not see that I said that red states are NOT poor because they are red? Would I say that, if I were only "pushing a (partisan) meme"? I provided you an answer why this is, why it is NOT the conservatives' fault that red states are worse off than blue states. Have you got a better answer?

    Again, if I am only pushing a partisan meme, WHY would I say that red states are NOT generally poor because of conservative governance? WHY would I say that, if I'm just some partisan progressive hack?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #412
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    But people all over the world do see it, ocean. Some with the same mindset are probably silently applauding our eventual demise, since 5000 years of history has shown them that every government that has tried this has gone down the tubes. I'm sure it royally p***es off the powers that be that it's taking so long to accomplish their goal to bring us into their one-world-government fold, though, because it's costing them a lot of money, which may explain why it's being accelerated lately. Would you have thought these things could happen 30 or 40 years ago? I wouldn't have believed it if someone had told me! And this will be the first time in history that so many modern governments are all facing the same problems, at the same time, for the same reasons. The next few years will be __________ *fill in the blank*

    Meanwhile, other governments are actively working to take away our "favored nation" status, which will probably "officially" bankrupt us, since our debt is so great that it would take over 1000 years to be repaid, even at 100 percent taxation of everybody! Is this all happening by coincidence? Why of course it is!
    Would I have thought these things would have been happening now 30 - 40 years ago? No, I definitely would not have bet on it. However, I can't keep forgetting where we have been as a country throughtout our history. We just about tore ourselves in half in 1860, and we did some really stupid stuff in the early 1900's related to prohibition. We survived all that.

    One thing that I can't escape from, and I may be a hopeless romantic, but this country was settled and founded by exceptional people. Even our lifetimes, exceptional people have risked everything to get here legally. It's only recently that this one-world, progressive insanity has come along. Just like prohibition.

    I feel very strongly that sanity will return, and the era of PC stupidity, internet based propaganda, and manipulated minions will draw to it's inevitable end.

  3. #413
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Let's say for a moment that you're absolutely, 100% right about California. I strongly disagree, but let's go with that. What about the rest of the blue states who are doing quite well with much the same economic philosophy that California is adopting? Why are they not spiraling down to the economic dustbin of history?

    FYI, up until about 1998 or so, it cost $400/yr to register a car in Washington. We cut the cost way down...and at the same time raised the gasoline tax in order to pay for it IIRC.

    And did you not see that I said that red states are NOT poor because they are red? Would I say that, if I were only "pushing a (partisan) meme"? I provided you an answer why this is, why it is NOT the conservatives' fault that red states are worse off than blue states. Have you got a better answer?

    Again, if I am only pushing a partisan meme, WHY would I say that red states are NOT generally poor because of conservative governance? WHY would I say that, if I'm just some partisan progressive hack?
    Not only did California increase auto fees, the also have the highest state gasoline "taxes" in the country. The list goes on an on. You are wise to let it be.

    The thing is GC, I just don't buy into the Red State/Blue State comparison whatsoever. We are one country. Each state has it's resources and it's position. Some are rural and need more than others to support federally mandated expenses . Some are extremely urban, and generate tremendous revenues without a corresponding need for federal revenue in return. Others a combination.

    Who pays more, and who gets more is not a reflection of political party defined by the last election cycle. One could be a red state with big cities dominating the political landscape and voting blue. Who cares? It's not a meaningful measure of anything important other than to try and say "we are better than you" based on an always changing political landscape.

  4. #414
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    I can't tell you how many conservatives have told me that they don't want a higher minimum wage because "those people don't deserve more".
    I bet you read that wrong somehow. Im thinking the comment may have been more in the spirit of "they make what they are worth to the market". Just a guess.

  5. #415
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I don't understand why you keep jumping into the pool. It's full of lava, not water.

    Tax Burden by state? First, the simplistic analysis you posted is from 12 years ago. Even then, Washington was ranked #32, while California was ranked #17. I'd hardly call that "not much less".


    NEW YORK (CNN/Money) -- Residents in which states pay the most in taxes? The figures below are from the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation for 2002, the latest data available.


    Try this one, from 2011, which doesn't take into account the most recent income and sales taxes Progressive shoved through. You will note, in 2011, California was ranked #4, and Washington was ranked #27.

    Annual State-Local Tax Burden Ranking FY 2011 | Tax Foundation

    As to poverty rate. Supplemental Poverty Rate is the standard by which all measurements are used today. Who cares what you think? You can't use figures, and then throw them out when they don't suit you. You eliminate any remaining credibility when you do that. At this point your tank is past being on fumes, it's on absolute ZERO.

    Finally, as expected, you throw down the "oh yeah, well red/blue, so there".

    When presented facts, you've scrambled all over the place trying to defend an agenda and ideology that is proving a failure. You've gone from how grand the great socialized countries of Europe are, but then when confronted with facts about their condition today, launch into the Progressive meme of Red State/Blue State, which has been thoroughly debunked and relegated to the sewer from which it crawled. Then you have gone on a completely uninformed trip through facts that aren't actually supporting your beliefs, but are actually refuting them.

    CG, I give you credit for passion about what you want to be true. However, the fact is, your displaying the tactics of a pure ideologue, who will reject everything, and clutch at anything, to hold to your position.

    It didn't work. You're in Lava my friend, not water. You should have taken a moment to notice the difference.
    Well stated across the board.

  6. #416
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Hi Polgara

    This is what's happening. I don't know if the foundation of the business community in California is strong enough to shrug off the damaging impacts of the Progressive forces in Sacramento. When a state the size of California ranks at or near the top in unemployment in the country, that is a catastrophic statistic. How such a thing gets so ignored is remarkable to me.

    The very sad part is how harmful all this Progressive ideology has been on the most vulnerable people living in this state. Talk about lip service from politicians. Massive unemployment among minorities, etc, and then a hearty welcome to illegal aliens who are taking their jobs.

    It's the most disjointed, illogical, mind bending thing to watch here.

    That's why I call California a Progressive worst nightmare. It's the end game of their agenda, and they don't want anyone to see it.
    Absolutely, being surrounded by liberals in CA and noting how blind they were to the consequences of their action (and inaction) while being firmly incapable of intelligently making a case is what made me a conservative. Its disturbing to see whats been done here, and people who have never been here beyond hollywood or disney land think they have the skinny on this state-which is about 10% of the nations population, and has over 30% of the nations welfare recipients.

  7. #417
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Absolutely, being surrounded by liberals in CA and noting how blind they were to the consequences of their action (and inaction) while being firmly incapable of intelligently making a case is what made me a conservative. Its disturbing to see whats been done here, and people who have never been here beyond hollywood or disney land think they have the skinny on this state-which is about 10% of the nations population, and has over 30% of the nations welfare recipients.
    When one considers that @ 1 out of 8 people living in this country call California home, and almost 25% of those people are considered to be living in poverty, it's beyond the imagination to grasp how liberal/progressives don't have their feet held to the fire to explain. Instead, they love to talk about what an amazing job Jerry Brown has done "righting the ship". WTH?

    Brown passes his grand "Public Employee Pension Reform" plan through the legislature, and takes victory laps with it before the last election cycle. And then this week, CalPers votes to add more "qualifying" income to the mix to establish retirement benefits, and Brown complains.

    What the hell? If his reform did the job, how did CalPers get away with more of their outrageous pension spiking BS? Well, the truth is, Brown knew his reform was meaningless, but he passed it just to get taxpayers off his back, rally some votes, and show the debt ratings companies he was "serious" about finances in the state. Obviously he wasn't.

    It's my boggling my friend. Absolutely mind boggling.

  8. #418
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    When one considers that @ 1 out of 8 people living in this country call California home, and almost 25% of those people are considered to be living in poverty, it's beyond the imagination to grasp how liberal/progressives don't have their feet held to the fire to explain. Instead, they love to talk about what an amazing job Jerry Brown has done "righting the ship". WTH?

    Brown passes his grand "Public Employee Pension Reform" plan through the legislature, and takes victory laps with it before the last election cycle. And then this week, CalPers votes to add more "qualifying" income to the mix to establish retirement benefits, and Brown complains.

    What the hell? If his reform did the job, how did CalPers get away with more of their outrageous pension spiking BS? Well, the truth is, Brown knew his reform was meaningless, but he passed it just to get taxpayers off his back, rally some votes, and show the debt ratings companies he was "serious" about finances in the state. Obviously he wasn't.

    It's my boggling my friend. Absolutely mind boggling.
    And how many Californians know about this? They want their bullet trains!

    Wheres Tom McClintock when you need him?

  9. #419
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    The Mark's Avatar
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The available social statistics do not support that claim. The most powerful factor is the family situation.
    I didn't say it would be easy. It might even involve removing the child from the bad family situation.

    But sometimes I wonder if "the families don't support" is just an excuse.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #420
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    Re: How is poverty best eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I didn't say it would be easy. It might even involve removing the child from the bad family situation.
    and putting them where? The state is usually no better if not worse.

    But sometimes I wonder if "the families don't support" is just an excuse.
    you are free to wonder it. However the success or failure of a childs' parents at forming a stable family is (by all we are able to measure) the most dominating determinant.

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