View Poll Results: Do we live in a free country?

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    41 42.27%
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Thread: Do We Live in a Free Country?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by yobarnacle View Post
    *snip for Great Brevity*
    So the fed does what it wants regardless of the states? That's tyranny.
    I am of the opinion that because of the immense amount of info available on the internet, nearly all of which can be easily/subtly modified in a multitude of ways and re-presented so as to support a given position, you need at least 3 grains of salt with anything you read.

    I like Wikipedia in this area not because of the content of their information, but rather their provision of multiple links on most subjects, for further research.

    I prefer news articles with multiple links to information too, although those can occasionally be total BS as well. The problem is that rarely can I be sure of anything, even if acknowledged experts say it's so.

    For all I know they're not really acknowledged, only pretending.
    Or they've been taken out of context. In this day and age context is one of if not THE most important bits of data about a piece of information. Maybe it has always been so, but lately it seems to be ignored so often I have to wonder.
    Or they don't even exist at all, and someone is just claiming that "experts" support whatever bull**** they're peddling. Frankly anyone can call themselves an expert, in the end. Proving they are is another question.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #132
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Depends on exactly what you mean by "free country". I used to think the concept of "freedom" was widely understood in a similar manner; I have come to find out it means very different things to different people... some of which don't really jibe with "freedom".


    Example?

  3. #133
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Example?

    Some people literally think "free" means "someone else pays for what I want". I mean I've literally heard people express this.


    More subtly, some people value certain freedoms but not others, and think our society is "free" if their own preferred freedoms are available, but are uncaring if freedoms OTHERS value are restricted or nonexistent. This is the more common variance of defining freedom.

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  4. #134
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Some people literally think "free" means "someone else pays for what I want". I mean I've literally heard people express this.


    More subtly, some people value certain freedoms but not others, and think our society is "free" if their own preferred freedoms are available, but are uncaring if freedoms OTHERS value are restricted or nonexistent. This is the more common variance of defining freedom.


    I don't agree with that, but we will leave that for another day. Freedom is the ability to live your life free of oppression, false allegations, the pursuit of happiness, to have a family without the worry that it will be taken from you. Do you agree? If so, do you think that we have these freedoms in this country?

  5. #135
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    We are told we live in a free country. "Land of the free" yada yada yada. Simple question: "Do we live in a free country"?
    Not living in the land of the home and free of the brave, I don't navel-gaze on the subject. Yeah, I live in a free country.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

  6. #136
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    I don't agree with that, but we will leave that for another day. Freedom is the ability to live your life free of oppression, false allegations, the pursuit of happiness, to have a family without the worry that it will be taken from you. Do you agree? If so, do you think that we have these freedoms in this country?

    1. That is YOUR definition of freedom. Someone else's definition may be different.
    2. Define oppression. If I can't own an AR15 am I being oppressed? I think so; some don't. If a 20yo and a 16yo can't have an intimate relationship are they being oppressed? They probably think so, but many would disagree. If gay people can't marry, are they being oppressed? Some think so, some think not.
    3. Some people don't worry their family will be taken from them (they may not have or want one), but may worry something else they value more will be.

    Consider those three points and tell me again if you think "freedom" doesn't vary in different person's perspective.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #137
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    1. That is YOUR definition of freedom. Someone else's definition may be different.
    2. Define oppression. If I can't own an AR15 am I being oppressed? I think so; some don't. If a 20yo and a 16yo can't have an intimate relationship are they being oppressed? They probably think so, but many would disagree. If gay people can't marry, are they being oppressed? Some think so, some think not.
    3. Some people don't worry their family will be taken from them (they may not have or want one), but may worry something else they value more will be.

    Consider those three points and tell me again if you think "freedom" doesn't vary in different person's perspective.


    You are trying to anticipate my point before I even make it! I am talking about our BASIC freedoms--life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Do you think that we have these freedoms or not?

  8. #138
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    You are trying to anticipate my point before I even make it! I am talking about our BASIC freedoms--life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Do you think that we have these freedoms or not?
    Liberty is a basic freedom? Liberty IS freedom. It implies everything Goshin is talking about.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #139
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    You are trying to anticipate my point before I even make it! I am talking about our BASIC freedoms--life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Do you think that we have these freedoms or not?


    Forgive me, I am not trying to be obtuse, or excessively clever, or anything of the sort... and I am sorry if it comes across that way.

    Life: that's a simple one.... but pro-life and pro-choice would argue wouldn't they...
    Pursuit of happiness: more complicated but essentially are you free to pursue what makes you happy, as long as you aren't hurting anyone.

    Liberty.... ah, liberty. Now that is a bit more complex. We really can't say whether we have LIBERTY unless we know what it IS, right?

    But is my definition the same as yours? If so, is our definition the same as Some Random Dude we find in a coffee shop?


    When you say BASIC freedoms, are you asking me to accept some minimalist laundry list of what constitutes freedom? If so, what if my FAVORITE freedom isn't on that list? Is it then not legitimate that I feel I am NOT free if my favorite freedom is not respected?


    And will these definitions not meet variance between different individuals coming from different perspectives?


    Way back when the great minds were debating things like natural law, the proper place of government, democracy and rights, the days of Locke and Hobbes and so forth, one of those worthy wits asked this question: "Why should the common people care about political liberty when their children are starving? What use is franchise to the desperately poor?" He was pointing out how a theoretical political equality was of limited use when people were subject to incredible disparity of material prosperity, you see.... and this highlights the point I'm making about different viewpoints of freedom.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #140
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Forgive me, I am not trying to be obtuse, or excessively clever, or anything of the sort... and I am sorry if it comes across that way.

    Life: that's a simple one.... but pro-life and pro-choice would argue wouldn't they...
    Pursuit of happiness: more complicated but essentially are you free to pursue what makes you happy, as long as you aren't hurting anyone.

    Liberty.... ah, liberty. Now that is a bit more complex. We really can't say whether we have LIBERTY unless we know what it IS, right?

    But is my definition the same as yours? If so, is our definition the same as Some Random Dude we find in a coffee shop?


    When you say BASIC freedoms, are you asking me to accept some minimalist laundry list of what constitutes freedom? If so, what if my FAVORITE freedom isn't on that list? Is it then not legitimate that I feel I am NOT free if my favorite freedom is not respected?


    And will these definitions not meet variance between different individuals coming from different perspectives?


    Way back when the great minds were debating things like natural law, the proper place of government, democracy and rights, the days of Locke and Hobbes and so forth, one of those worthy wits asked this question: "Why should the common people care about political liberty when their children are starving? What use is franchise to the desperately poor?" He was pointing out how a theoretical political equality was of limited use when people were subject to incredible disparity of material prosperity, you see.... and this highlights the point I'm making about different viewpoints of freedom.
    I generally go with the big three:

    Life
    Speech
    Defense

    Those rights are self evident natural social objects.

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