View Poll Results: Do we live in a free country?

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    41 42.27%
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Thread: Do We Live in a Free Country?

  1. #121
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by yobarnacle View Post
    If that remark is referenced to "Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    "Evidently you haven't lost the right to post hyperbolic blather. "Quote"

    Then your ignorance is out of the closet. Put it back.
    If instead you are agreeing the government is illegal and by ignoring the 10th amendment has embarked on tyranny as feared by founders, then you are astute.

    Bill of Rights

    "During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Fresh in their minds was the memory of the British violation of civil rights before and during the Revolution. They demanded a "bill of rights" that would spell out the immunities of individual citizens. Several state conventions in their formal ratification of the Constitution asked for such amendments; others ratified the Constitution with the understanding that the amendments would be offered.

    On September 25, 1789, the First Congress of the United States therefore proposed to the state legislatures 12 amendments to the Constitution that met arguments most frequently advanced against it. The first two proposed amendments, which concerned the number of constituents for each Representative and the compensation of Congressmen, were not ratified. Articles 3 to 12, however, ratified by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights."

    Bill of Rights Transcript Text

    Article the eleventh(ratified as 9th)... The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people
    Article the twelfth (ratified as 10th)... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


    What? My response was to your comment "When officials exceed their constitutional powers, they rob us rights not named. And it is unconstitutional and illegal for officials to do so.".

  2. #122
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    What? My response was to your comment "When officials exceed their constitutional powers, they rob us rights not named. And it is unconstitutional and illegal for officials to do so.".
    Thanks, so I thought.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  3. #123
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by yobarnacle View Post
    Thanks, so I thought.


    I also remarked that they do it anyway...Everyone is always harping on the Federal Government. It is local and State governments that exceed their authority and trample on our constitutional rights on a daily basis.

  4. #124
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    I also remarked that they do it anyway...Everyone is always harping on the Federal Government. It is local and State governments that exceed their authority and trample on our constitutional rights on a daily basis.
    Under the Constitution the state governments have more powers than the federal government. The states are not provinces. When the colonies declared independence, the name STATE was deliberately chosen by founders and has a specific meaning. Best explanatory example is European states are France, Italy, Belgium, Germany, ect.
    We are UNITED STATES. It was never intended for the central government to have most of the power. The government nearest you, knows best the local problems and your vote counts the most when it's not diluted by the popular votes in 49 other states.
    All that being said, state governments, and ALL government, tends to grab more authority, never less, never willingly relinquishes power.
    That's why ULTIMATE power resides in the people. We can curtail government excesses if we have the will to exercise our power together.
    Parties were created to exercise joint will. Voting blocks more or less do the same.
    Apparently the parties and blocks have no interest in reigning in run away government.
    Maybe we need to forget parties and blocks based on ethnicity or financial status, or religion, or philosophy, just long enough to regain control of rabid government.
    Whoever is controlling this country, it isn't the people, I think. The elites have us at each other's throats so we don't get after them.

    I'd like to see, not a new political party, but some organization of AMERICAN PATRIOTS to consolidate efforts to return us to government of the people, by the people, for the people.
    The tea party was a grass roots movement with that aim in the beginning, but got subverted.
    Last edited by yobarnacle; 08-29-14 at 06:23 PM.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  5. #125
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Most patriotic names are already in use and tarnished.
    Any suggestions?

    Maybe "Not Sheep" movement
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  6. #126
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by yobarnacle View Post
    Reserving something is holding on to what is already yours. It's not asking permission. It's stating clearly "This is MINE. It was mine before we began our business together. It is going to remain mine. You can not have it. You have no claim or right to this, because I own it exclusively. It's reserved to me."
    Unless you willingly give it up.
    That's the part you're missing.

    The Constitution sets the baseline of the government structure and its chief operating mandates. But it also establishes a process through which laws can be created, changed, and repealed by representatives of the people. If we, through our representatives, decide it's in society's interest to give up some freedom, then laws can be created to take that right away. Later, through the same process, we can seek to have that right restored. The Constitution only dictates a few areas where lower laws cannot go without requiring amendments.

    The government cannot unilaterally claim onto itself new powers and authority. That's what the 10th Amendment prevents. But states can form their own constitutions and lower laws, and Congress can create lower laws on behalf of all the nations' people, to be applied to the nation as a whole.

    Or are you suggesting Congress only has the authority to perform those few specific duties specifically stated in the Constitution (treaties, war declarations, etc.)?

  7. #127
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Article the twelfth (ratified as 10th)... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Only three powers are prohibited to the states and otherwise state powers are not defined. Nowhere in the Constitution is power of the people limited.
    The three powers denied to states are coining money, making war (unless invaded), and making treaties with foreign governments.

    There are many restrictions by the Constitution upon the federal government including everything, all things, not delegated to the federal government.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  8. #128
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    [QUOTE=Dave Mittner;1063698857]Unless you willingly give it up.
    That's the part you're missing.

    The Constitution sets the baseline of the government structure and its chief operating mandates. But it also establishes a process through which laws can be created, changed, and repealed by representatives of the people. If we, through our representatives, decide it's in society's interest to give up some freedom, then laws can be created to take that right away. Later, through the same process, we can seek to have that right restored. The Constitution only dictates a few areas where lower laws cannot go without requiring amendments.

    The government cannot unilaterally claim onto itself new powers and authority. That's what the 10th Amendment prevents. But states can form their own constitutions and lower laws, and Congress can create lower laws on behalf of all the nations' people, to be applied to the nation as a whole.

    Or are you suggesting Congress only has the authority to perform those few specific duties specifically stated in the Constitution (treaties, war declarations, etc.)?[/QUOTE]
    Yes, and the executive branch also.
    Federal government can offer an amendment the Constitution . unless 3/4 ths of the states ratify, it's not an amendment.

    Are there any "amendments" that don't meet this qualification?
    Last edited by yobarnacle; 08-29-14 at 07:04 PM.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  9. #129
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...s_Constitution


    The Child Labor Amendment is a proposed and still-pending amendment to the United States Constitution that would specifically authorize Congress to regulate "labor of persons under eighteen years of age". The amendment was proposed in 1924 following Supreme Court rulings in 1918 and 1922 that federal laws regulating and taxing goods produced by employees under the ages of 14 and 16 were unconstitutional.

    The majority of the state governments ratified the amendment by the mid-1930s; however, it has not been ratified by the requisite 3⁄4 of the states according to Article V of the Constitution and none has ratified it after 1937. Interest in the amendment waned following the passage of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, which implemented federal regulation of child labor with the Supreme Court's approval in 1941.

    As Congress did not set a time limit for its ratification, the amendment is still technically pending before the states. Currently, ratification by an additional ten states would be necessary for this amendment to come into force.

    The Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) was a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution designed to guarantee equal rights for women. The ERA was originally written by Alice Paul and Crystal Eastman. In 1923, it was introduced in the Congress for the first time. In 1972, it passed both houses of Congress and went to the state legislatures for ratification.
    The resolution in Congress that proposed the amendment set a ratification deadline of March 22, 1979. Through 1977, the amendment received 35 of the necessary 38 state ratifications. Five states later rescinded their ratifications before the 1979 deadline, though the validity of these rescissions is disputed. In 1978, a joint resolution of Congress extended the ratification deadline to June 30, 1982, but no further states ratified the amendment before the passing of the second deadline. Several feminist organizations, disputing the validity and/or the permanence of the ratification deadline, and also disputing the validity of the five rescissions, continue to work at the federal and state levels for the adoption of the ERA.



    U.S. News & World Report
    September 27, 1957

    A MISTAKEN BELIEF — that there is a valid article in the Constitution known as the "Fourteenth Amendment" — is responsible for the Supreme Court decision of 1954 and the ensuing controversy over desegregation in the public schools of America. No such amendment was ever legally ratified by three fourths of the States of the Union as required by the Constitution itself. The so-called "Fourteenth Amendment" was dubiously proclaimed by the Secretary of State on July 20, 1868. The President shared that doubt. There were 37 States in the Union at the time, so ratification by at least 28 was necessary to make the amendment an integral part of the Constitution. Actually, only 21 States legally ratified it. So it failed of ratification.

    The undisputed record, attested by official journals and the unanimous writings of historians, establishes these events as occurring in 1867 and 1868:
    1. Outside the South, six States — New Jersey, Ohio, Kentucky, California, Delaware and Maryland — failed to ratify the proposed amendment.
    2. In the South, ten States — Texas, Arkansas, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi and Louisiana — by formal action of their legislatures, rejected it under the normal processes of civil law.
    3. A total of 16 legislatures out of 37 failed legally to ratify the "Fourteenth Amendment."
    4. Congress — which had deprived the Southern States of their seats in the Senate — did not lawfully pass the resolution of submission in the first instance.
    5. The Southern States which had rejected the amendment were coerced by a federal statute passed in 1867 that took away the right to vote or hold office from all citizens who had served in the Confederate Army. Military governors were appointed and instructed to prepare the roll of voters. All this happened in spite of the presidential proclamation of amnesty previously issued by the President. New legislatures were thereupon chosen and forced to "ratify" under penalty of continued exile from the Union. In Louisiana, a General sent down from the North presided over the State legislature.
    6. Abraham Lincoln had declared many times that the Union was "inseparable" and "indivisible." After his death, and when the war was over, the ratification by the Southern States of the Thirteenth Amendment, abolishing slavery, had been accepted as legal. But Congress in the 1867 law imposed the specific conditions under which the Southern States would be "entitled to representation in Congress."
    7. Congress, in passing the 1867 law that declared the Southern States could not have their seats in either the Senate or House in the next session unless they ratified the "Fourteenth Amendment," took an unprecedented step. No such right — to compel a State by an act of Congress to ratify a constitutional amendment — is to be found anywhere in the Constitution. Nor has this procedure ever been sanctioned by the Supreme Court of the United States.
    8. President Andrew Johnson publicly denounced this law as unconstitutional. But it was passed over his veto.
    9. Secretary of State Seward was on the spot in July 1868 when the various "ratifications" of a spurious nature were placed before him. The legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey had notified him that they rescinded their earlier action of ratification. He said in his official proclamation that he was not authorized as Secretary of State "to determine and decide doubtful questions as to the authenticity of the organization of State legislatures or as to the power of any State legislature to recall a previous act or resolution of ratification." He added that the amendment was valid "if the resolutions of the legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey, ratifying the aforesaid amendment, are to be deemed as remaining of full force and effect, notwithstanding the subsequent resolutions of the legislatures of these States." This was a very big "if." It will be noted that the real issue, therefore, is not only whether the forced "ratification" by the ten Southern States was lawful, but whether the withdrawal by the legislatures of Ohio and New Jersey — two Northern States — was legal. The right of a State, by action of its legislature, to change its mind at any time before the final proclamation of ratification is issued by the Secretary of State has been confirmed in connection with other constitutional amendments.
    10. The Oregon Legislature in October 1868 — three months after the Secretary's proclamation was issued — passed a rescinding resolution, which argued that the "Fourteenth Amendment" had not been ratified by three fourths of the States and that the "ratifications" in the Southern States were "usurpations, unconstitutional, revolutionary and void" and that, "until such ratification is completed, any State has a right to withdraw its assent to any proposed amendment."


    So the fed does what it wants regardless of the states? That's tyranny.
    If you live long enough, you will live in a foreign country, because the past is foreign to the present. We lived differently then. The only constant is change!

  10. #130
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    Re: Do We Live in a Free Country?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    We are told we live in a free country. "Land of the free" yada yada yada. Simple question: "Do we live in a free country"?


    Depends on exactly what you mean by "free country". I used to think the concept of "freedom" was widely understood in a similar manner; I have come to find out it means very different things to different people... some of which don't really jibe with "freedom".

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