Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

The Baron · Aug 27, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
I would say providing generally good insurance, providing better pay, benefits, and better job security serves their members...

THese days they would have it without unions.

TheDemSocialist · Aug 27, 2014

The Baron said:
THese days they would have it without unions.

Tell that to a full time fast food worker then get back to me. Tell that to a union worker and a non-union worker.

wist43 · Aug 27, 2014

Karl said:
Pot, meet kettle :lamo

Offhand I would say the most disastrous things to happen to the country over the past few decades, with respect to harming the economy, are:

1. The 9/11 attacks -- effectively caused by a corrupt foreign policy.

2. The subsequent Iraq war -- decidedly caused by a corrupt Republican government (ours).

3. The Great Recession of 2008 -- decidedly caused by corrupt, careless corporations.

Tell me again how unions are destroying the country?

Public sector unions are bankrupting municipalities - last time I checked 6 CA cities have gone bust, and several more are on that path. Teachers unions are nothing more than organized crime units that have figured out how to pick the lock of the public treasury.

In San Diego the teachers union was able to secure a $100 million dollar loan to ensure that the teachers continued to receive their golden parachutes and early retirements. The terms of the loan were that there would be no payments for 20 years, but after that time the payoff amount would be $1 billion. Do you think some teacher who is getting ready to retire at the age of 52, is going to tell 7 year old little Johnnie that in 20 years, when he is 27, that he will have to start making payments on that loan so the teacher can retire early and live the good life until they kick off??

Here in Wisconsin, the teachers union has stolen hundreds of millions of dollars - until enough people got wise, and ousted the radical left from power in this state. Of course the thieves threw a hissy fit that made national news, as all the Dems went into a childish exile in Illinois - they should have stayed there, as Chicago and Illinois are about as corrupt as any city-state in the country... they were pigs in mud down there, lol..

You can't fire them for malfeasence, misconduct, poor performance, or anything for that matter. In short, it is nearly impossible to get rid of the parasites, and attempting to do so is very much time consuming and costly. Here in Wisconsin a few years ago, a teacher was fired for watching porn on his computer during class - the union went nuts, and began a years long battle to get the guy his job back. They got him his job back, with full back pay. Now that pervert is back to "teaching" children - as a concerned parent, I would never allow my child to come in contact with that piece of garbage.

Detroit is fine example of leftist mismanagement; Birmingham, AL went bust; Santa Barbara, Stockton, Vallejo, etc... San Francisco will go bust within a decade, as will Los Angles; Chicago is in big trouble; the states of New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Michigan, and California are all on very shaky ground - all b/c of golden parachute retirement plans and benefits for unionized government workers.

Notice a pattern there?? They are bastions of leftist, democrat, socialist, communist, unionized parasites.

It is no accident or suprise that the communists have always targetted unions for infiltration and then used them as a vehicle to spread their poisonous ideology. They infiltrate institutions, and then turn those institutions against the people - of course the union workers within the institutions are benefitting handsomely - of course they think it's a great deal - and of course they couldn't care less about the impropriety of their actions, or the suffering and damage they cause to their society; b/c afterall, they themselves are profitting.

OnWisconsin · Aug 27, 2014

Karl said:
Pot, meet kettle :lamo

Offhand I would say the most disastrous things to happen to the country over the past few decades, with respect to harming the economy, are:

1. The 9/11 attacks -- effectively caused by a corrupt foreign policy.

2. The subsequent Iraq war -- decidedly caused by a corrupt Republican government (ours).

3. The Great Recession of 2008 -- decidedly caused by corrupt, careless corporations.

Tell me again how unions are destroying the country?

Offhand I would say the most disastrous things to happen to the country over the past few decades, with respect to harming the economy, are:

1. The 9/11 attacks -- effectively caused by a corrupt foreign policy.

2. The subsequent Iraq war -- decidedly caused by a corrupt Republican government (ours).

3. The Great Recession of 2008 -- decidedly caused by corrupt, careless bankers and wallstreet firms.

Tell me again how unions are destroying the country?

There.. its been fixed

The Baron · Aug 27, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
Tell that to a full time fast food worker then get back to me. Tell that to a union worker and a non-union worker.

Fast food workers are hilarious. These are jobs for teenagers and people who have already retired and these morons think they should earn $80K a year making french fries.

And, in case you haven't noticed, union memberships are going down across the board.

Geoist · Aug 27, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
Many people often claim that labor and trade unions are no longer needed, because "safety regulations, fair wages, days off, 8 hour work day, and child labor" have already been won. They claim because of this labor, and trade unions are no longer needed. My question is: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

That argument is like saying "we already have free speech so why do we need the first amendment?"

Who is to say all of those things won't be lost once unions are dissolved? Any free and just society requires the existence of unions.

TheDemSocialist · Aug 27, 2014

The Baron said:
Fast food workers are hilarious. These are jobs for teenagers and people who have already retired and these morons think they should earn $80K a year making french fries.

Majority of fast food workers are adults. You said that "workers would have these without unions"? Why dont they?

And, in case you haven't noticed, union memberships are going down across the board.

Ok... That has nothing to do with our debate at hand.

But none the less compare a union worker to a non-union worker. That union worker for the most part, has better pay, better health coverage, better benefits.

The Baron · Aug 27, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
Majority of fast food workers are adults. You said that "workers would have these without unions"? Why dont they?

The majority of those adults are people who have made bad decisions.

TheDemSocialist said:
Ok... That has nothing to do with our debate at hand.

I'm just saying people are noticing that unions sux.

TheDemSocialist said:
But none the less compare a union worker to a non-union worker. That union worker for the most part, has better pay, better health coverage, better benefits.

No, not really.

I used to work for a company that had a plant in one state and a second plant in a neighboring state. One plant was unionized the other wasn’t. Both plants had to wear the company uniform, which everyone hated.

The union plant didn’t have to wear their hats. That’s all their union dues bought them.

Phoenix · Aug 27, 2014

Nothing should prevent people from banding together and forming a trade organization. Membership shouldn't be a requirement to be employed at a business. It shouldn't have any backing from the government.

TheDemSocialist · Aug 27, 2014

The Baron said:
The majority of those adults are people who have made bad decisions.

So you stating that those rights have already been won is not true then.

I'm just saying people are noticing that unions sux.

There is no proof that declining union membership means "unions sux"

No, not really.

Yes, really.

gdgyva · Aug 27, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
So they are not necessary because you dont like who many labor unions endorse?

they stopped representing members

why are more and more people electing NOT to go union....because they no longer see the benefit

100k have left the union rolls in Wisconsin since the choice was given

Tennessee auto manufacturer (VW) just voted down the union in 2014

the unions had their time and place....and they helped to make the workplace a safer and fairer environment

now...it is just a political outfit....that cares little for their members and their members are leaving because of it

Amandi · Aug 27, 2014

wist43 said:
Public sector unions are bankrupting municipalities - last time I checked 6 CA cities have gone bust, and several more are on that path. Teachers unions are nothing more than organized crime units that have figured out how to pick the lock of the public treasury.

In San Diego the teachers union was able to secure a $100 million dollar loan to ensure that the teachers continued to receive their golden parachutes and early retirements. The terms of the loan were that there would be no payments for 20 years, but after that time the payoff amount would be $1 billion. Do you think some teacher who is getting ready to retire at the age of 52, is going to tell 7 year old little Johnnie that in 20 years, when he is 27, that he will have to start making payments on that loan so the teacher can retire early and live the good life until they kick off??

Here in Wisconsin, the teachers union has stolen hundreds of millions of dollars - until enough people got wise, and ousted the radical left from power in this state. Of course the thieves threw a hissy fit that made national news, as all the Dems went into a childish exile in Illinois - they should have stayed there, as Chicago and Illinois are about as corrupt as any city-state in the country... they were pigs in mud down there, lol..

You can't fire them for malfeasence, misconduct, poor performance, or anything for that matter. In short, it is nearly impossible to get rid of the parasites, and attempting to do so is very much time consuming and costly. Here in Wisconsin a few years ago, a teacher was fired for watching porn on his computer during class - the union went nuts, and began a years long battle to get the guy his job back. They got him his job back, with full back pay. Now that pervert is back to "teaching" children - as a concerned parent, I would never allow my child to come in contact with that piece of garbage.

Detroit is fine example of leftist mismanagement; Birmingham, AL went bust; Santa Barbara, Stockton, Vallejo, etc... San Francisco will go bust within a decade, as will Los Angles; Chicago is in big trouble; the states of New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Michigan, and California are all on very shaky ground - all b/c of golden parachute retirement plans and benefits for unionized government workers.

Notice a pattern there?? They are bastions of leftist, democrat, socialist, communist, unionized parasites.

It is no accident or suprise that the communists have always targetted unions for infiltration and then used them as a vehicle to spread their poisonous ideology. They infiltrate institutions, and then turn those institutions against the people - of course the union workers within the institutions are benefitting handsomely - of course they think it's a great deal - and of course they couldn't care less about the impropriety of their actions, or the suffering and damage they cause to their society; b/c afterall, they themselves are profitting.

Public sector unions that can negotiate payment do need to pay attention to if their areas can afford that pay. I agree.

Karl · Aug 27, 2014

wist43 said:
Public sector unions are bankrupting municipalities - last time I checked 6 CA cities have gone bust, and several more are on that path. Teachers unions are nothing more than organized crime units that have figured out how to pick the lock of the public treasury. [...]

Sloganeering:

A slogan is a memorable motto or phrase used in a political, commercial, religious, and other context as a repetitive expression of an idea or purpose. The word slogan is derived from slogorn which was an Anglicisation of the Scottish Gaelic and Irish sluagh-ghairm tanmay (sluagh "army", "host" + gairm "cry").[1] Slogans vary from the written and the visual to the chanted and the vulgar. Their simple rhetorical nature usually leaves little room for detail and a chanted slogan may serve more as social expression of unified purpose than as communication to an intended audience.

Marketing slogans are often called taglines in the United States or straplines in the UK. Europeans use the terms baselines, signatures, claims or pay-offs.[2]

"Sloganeering" is a mostly derogatory term for activity which degrades discourse to the level of slogans.

Slogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wist43 said:
[...] Notice a pattern there?? They are bastions of leftist, democrat, socialist, communist, unionized parasites. [...]

Sloganeering:

A slogan is a memorable motto or phrase used in a political, commercial, religious, and other context as a repetitive expression of an idea or purpose. The word slogan is derived from slogorn which was an Anglicisation of the Scottish Gaelic and Irish sluagh-ghairm tanmay (sluagh "army", "host" + gairm "cry").[1] Slogans vary from the written and the visual to the chanted and the vulgar. Their simple rhetorical nature usually leaves little room for detail and a chanted slogan may serve more as social expression of unified purpose than as communication to an intended audience.

Marketing slogans are often called taglines in the United States or straplines in the UK. Europeans use the terms baselines, signatures, claims or pay-offs.[2]

"Sloganeering" is a mostly derogatory term for activity which degrades discourse to the level of slogans.

Slogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Karl · Aug 27, 2014

wist43 said:
[...] Here in Wisconsin a few years ago, a teacher was fired for watching porn on his computer during class - the union went nuts, and began a years long battle to get the guy his job back. They got him his job back, with full back pay. Now that pervert is back to "teaching" children [...]

Ah. More right wing propaganda... surprise, surprise, surprise :lol:

The court system told the school board to reinstate the teacher, mainly because there were several other teachers that were involved in the email porn deal (not really "watching" porn as the propagandists try to imply) who were not fired but merely given suspensions. According to the local news reports, the teacher that was fired was a vocal union supporter while the others apparently were not. So, a pro-union worker was punished much more severely than other workers, for apparently the same offense. Surprise, surprise, surprise :roll:

WMTV Madison WI said:
WMTV Madison WI said:

Posted Wednesday, February 3, 2010 --- 2:30 p.m.

Press Release from the Middleton-Cross Plains Area School District:

There have been incidents involving adult content material being transferred via district email, which violates district policy regarding appropriate use of technology. As soon as administration became aware of this, swift and appropriate action was taken. [...] During this review we discovered additional violations of district policy. There are seven high school staff members and one administrator that will receive some type of discipline. The administrator chose to retire; the others will receive disciplinary action based on the severity of the violation. In addition, one substitute teacher was dismissed.

Click to expand...

WMTV Madison WI said:

UPDATED Thursday March 1, 2012 --- 5:35 p.m.
Posted By: Barclay Pollak

In a near 60 page document an independent arbitrator outlines the relationship between Andy Harris and three of his female colleagues. The arbitrator says all parties involved used adult humor and spoke of adult topics on occasion while at work.

She also says that Mr. Harris should not have been fired. He should have been punished to the tune of a 15 day suspension with out pay. [...]

Click to expand...

WMTV Madison WI said:

UPDATED Wednesday, Sept. 11, 2013 --- 7:30 p.m.
Posted by: Madeline Anderson

The board of education for the Middleton Cross Plains Area School District continues to fight an appellate court's decision [this is after they lost to the independent arbitrator] to reinstate a middle school teacher accused of viewing porn at work. While teaching seventh grade science at Glacier Creek, the school district says Andrew Harris received, viewed and showed pornographic images on the job. [...]

The school board terminated Harris because of his behavior back in May of 2010. The Middleton Education Association filed a grievance challenging the punishment, and an arbitrator largely ruled in favor of the MEA, reducing Harris' termination to a 15-day suspension on the grounds other faculty who were accused of similar conduct in unrelated instances weren't treated as harshly. Since then, the board has unsuccessfully appealed the decision to put Harris back in the classroom. Now, in a unanimous vote Monday night, Lindgren says the district hopes to take the case to the State Supreme Court. [...]

Harris' lawyer says he's not surprised the district is appealing for a second time. "In this case, the district is willing to spend unlimited resources to vindicate a view that has clearly been rejected by every single neutral that has heard the case," said William Haus, the attorney for the MEA [union]. [...]

Click to expand...

WMTV Madison WI said:

UPDATED Wednesday, January 15, 2014 --- 9:30 p.m.

The Middleton Cross Plains-Area teacher fired for looking at pornography while on the job could be back in the classroom by the end of the month. This week the Wis. Supreme Court announced it would not hear the school district's case against Andrew Harris. This appeal to the state's highest court was the district's last chance [...].

The district faces nearly $1 million in legal fees and back pay it owes Harris. [...]

Click to expand...

WMTV Madison WI said:

UPDATED Tuesday, January 28, 2014 --- 12:43 p.m.

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Gov. Scott Walker wants a middle school teacher who viewed pornography on his classroom computer to lose his license. [...]

Click to expand...

WMTV Madison WI said:

UPDATED Thursday, April 17, 2014 --- 1:04 p.m.

According to the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction, Middleton teacher Andrew Harris will be allowed to keep his teaching license. [...] Arbitrators ruled the school district wrongly fired Harris. He returned to teach science at Kromrey Middle School this year. In a letter the DPI said that while Harris's conduct was "highly inappropriate," it does not meet the legal definition of immoral conduct as the law stood at the time. [...]

Click to expand...

reader comment said:

I scanned and read the arbitration document. This teacher was fired for receiving 23 emails with inappropriate content over about a 12-14 month period (with records available for examination) from his sister who send him 100's of other emails in the same time frame . The district didn't claim he ever shared the contents with students or that any students ever saw any of the emails. The district contends he shared the emails by forward 1 inappropriate email to 2 of his friends who were not district employees. He also let teachers from his teaching team see the images before deleting them from his mail box and trash. The teacher admits his sister had been sending him emails with inappropriate content for 9-10 years at a rate of 1-2/month along with many other emails. The district does not claim he actively viewed pornographic websites or searched using inappropriate terms. The district does not claim any students ever knew of or saw the images, or that he had any inappropriate interactions with students. The district agreed that the recipient of an email can not tell if the contents of an email are inappropriate without opening it. However, 8 of the 23 emails were marks "XXX" by the sister. (in my reading of the document, it appeared to me that the materials were all primarily intended as humor rather than sexual arousal. (The worse description I found was a photograph of 3 naked women bent over the back of a car labeled a "snatch -back". I did not see the image.)

Click to expand...

UPDATE: DPI: Middleton teacher Andrew Harris allowed to keep teaching license

In summary, several teachers are caught viewing emailed 'porn' from one teacher's sister (a little weird, but obviously not illegal). The one teacher who is a union agitator gets fired by the school board. An arbitrator rules against the school board. The school board appeals to a regular court and loses. The school board appeals to the State Supreme Court and is refused a hearing. The Governor then gets into the act and tries to use his executive power to probably illegally influence a state agency to revoke the teacher's license. He loses. Typical right wing authoritarianism... if only they could get rid of those pesky courts and that pesky Constitution they could do great things :shock:

In this particular case a union stood in the face of tyranny, and as a result the rule of law was sustained. This is why tyranny wants to get rid of unions.

P.S. -- it was not the union that went nuts, but the school board and Gov. ~~Koch Brothers~~ Walker

Lakeside · Aug 27, 2014

OnWisconsin said:
You know nothing of what trade unions do. Why do you hate on people making money? You'd rather stick up for big business than the middle class union worker? It just doesn't make sense to me why there is a race to the bottom. Are you just jealous and want to bring everyone down to your level?

"Are you just jealous and want to bring everyone down to your level"...ROTFLMMFAO. Yeah, that's it. I am jealous that I don't have to PAY for a job. Yeah, I am jealous that I would have to be accountable to a BA who only takes care of his friends. When did I say that I HATE people making money? You are just in denial that unions are a thing of the past. Democrats have used unions for years for their money and what have they done for you? NOTHING...as I have said before, union numbers are dwindling each year. Best of luck in your servitude to your union.

imagep · Aug 27, 2014

Lakeside said:
Hillary Clinton come to mind? Ole Hilly worked for one of the biggest anti-union law firms in America. And when Hillary was on the WalMart Board of Directors she sat in on 33 anti-union board meetings. We all know that Bill and Hillary were owned by Sam.

You should vote for Hillary then. Seems that you and her are in agreement. Would you like me to send you a Hillary for POTUS bumper sticker?

polisciguy · Aug 27, 2014

I voted other because I straight up don't know a lot about the state of other, similar industries, but living in the coalfields of Virginia for most of my life, I know that the UMWA has helped miners immensely (many in my family, in fact), at least in my area. So my answer is yes, at least to a small extent.

Karl · Aug 27, 2014

gdgyva said:
[1] they stopped representing members

[2] why are more and more people electing NOT to go union....because they no longer see the benefit

[3] 100k have left the union rolls in Wisconsin since the choice was given

[4] Tennessee auto manufacturer (VW) just voted down the union in 2014

[5] the unions had their time and place....and they helped to make the workplace a safer and fairer environment

[6] now...it is just a political outfit....that cares little for their members and their members are leaving because of it

Goodness... look at all the sloganeering :shock:

1. Says who? You? :lol:

2. Because an increasing number of states are making scabbing legal, and the typical low information right wing blue collar worker has no problem with being a taker (receiving good pay and benefits which he never did and never will contribute towards the cost of obtaining, and which would surely not exist unless others did and do pay for).

3. Assuming your figures are correct, I think we can then reasonably assume that they are either newly legal scabs or the union(s) involved were somehow legislated out of existence or representation by right wing governments or right wing courts.

4. There are some local/state government irregularities (threats, interference) reported in that vote. Don't know the current status of any legal action, if any.

5. You could apply that logic to many other things, like the U.S. Constitution either in part or in entirety.

Lakeside · Aug 27, 2014

imagep said:
You should vote for Hillary then. Seems that you and her are in agreement. Would you like me to send you a Hillary for POTUS bumper sticker?

No thanks. I would rather shower at Penn State then vote for a brain dead Liberal like Hillary.

DVSentinel · Aug 28, 2014

Lakeside said:
No thanks. I would rather shower at Penn State then vote for a brain dead Liberal like Hillary.

Brain dead Liberal, is there some reason you said the same thing twice. Being brain dead is a part of the definition of Liberal.

gdgyva · Aug 28, 2014

Karl said:
Goodness... look at all the sloganeering :shock:

1. Says who? You? :lol:

2. Because an increasing number of states are making scabbing legal, and the typical low information right wing blue collar worker has no problem with being a taker (receiving good pay and benefits which he never did and never will contribute towards the cost of obtaining, and which would surely not exist unless others did and do pay for).

3. Assuming your figures are correct, I think we can then reasonably assume that they are either newly legal scabs or the union(s) involved were somehow legislated out of existence or representation by right wing governments or right wing courts.

4. There are some local/state government irregularities (threats, interference) reported in that vote. Don't know the current status of any legal action, if any.

5. You could apply that logic to many other things, like the U.S. Constitution either in part or in entirety.

Face it.....

When given a choice, people are choosing non union

You can spin that any way you want

To me it is the death knell of unions....period

Amandi · Aug 28, 2014

gdgyva said:
Face it.....

When given a choice, people are choosing non union

You can spin that any way you want

To me it is the death knell of unions....period

You were correct in what you say here. I don't agree with close shop states, however, I also don't agree with forcing a union to represent people who are not members. If you don't want to join don't join but the union shouldn't have to represent you then. If unions go away because people stop using their services and that is the way America works. I hope it doesn't happen and if it does I hope works and conditions do not slowly start to backslide. I acknowledge that fear mongering on working conditions can go into a slippery slope fallacy so I will try to be careful not to commit that fallacy too much.

The Baron · Aug 28, 2014

TheDemSocialist said:
So you stating that those rights have already been won is not true then.

No. I’m saying those adults stuck making the french-fries as their only career opportunity should:

1. Have stayed off drugs.

2. Have kept their legs closed and not had three kids by the age of 14.

3. Have gotten their GED, at a minimum.

4. Have not spent their high-school years in and out of juvenile detentions centers / rehab.

5. Have learned to read and write.

TheDemSocialist said:
There is no proof that declining union membership means "unions sux"

Right. Declining membership is evidence of people’s perceived benefit of unions.

OnWisconsin · Aug 28, 2014

Lakeside said:
"Are you just jealous and want to bring everyone down to your level"...ROTFLMMFAO. Yeah, that's it. I am jealous that I don't have to PAY for a job. Yeah, I am jealous that I would have to be accountable to a BA who only takes care of his friends. When did I say that I HATE people making money? You are just in denial that unions are a thing of the past. Democrats have used unions for years for their money and what have they done for you? NOTHING...as I have said before, union numbers are dwindling each year. Best of luck in your servitude to your union.

well you obviously have something against unions. did they touch you inappropriately? show me on the doll where they touched you.

Karl · Aug 28, 2014

gdgyva said:
Face it.....

When given a choice, people are choosing non union

You can spin that any way you want [...]

I find it interesting that you don't want to know why, but instead are happy to not only believe what you've been told, but to repeat it. Seems to be prevalent in certain segments of society today. A term I first heard coined during Sarah Palin's run for Vice President was "intellectually incurious". At that time with regards to that person it fit very well. I don' think that is a good thing for politicians or voters.

I also find it interesting that you reply to a counter argument as "spin" instead of providing an intellectual counter-point.

However, I do not find it interesting or surprising that your talking point is wrong:

Minnesota Home-Care Workers Say Yes to Union
SEIU Adds 27,000 Home-Health Aides to 600,000 Others in About 20 States

By Kris Maher The Wall Street Journal
Updated Aug. 26, 2014 6:58 p.m. ET

The Service Employees International Union scored a victory Tuesday as home health-care workers in Minnesota voted to be represented by the labor group

Minnesota Home-Care Workers Say Yes to Union - WSJ

Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

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