View Poll Results: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

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  • Yes

    53 50.96%
  • No

    42 40.38%
  • Other

    9 8.65%
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Thread: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

  1. #231
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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    If you don't have a closed shop then you have takers (people who take without contributing). I thought takers were unpopular.
    Probably are. I still don't think a closed shop is better, but it may depend on the specifics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    That seems to be a strawman but it is probably a right wing talking point (= falsehood or misrepresentation).
    In some areas, dues are subtracted from paychecks and automatically sent to the union.
    Technically, if the employer in question is the government...
    Still, it is a bit misleading to say the "dues are collected by the government".

    I suppose I mainly object to the idea of dues being collected by the employer, from an employee's paycheck. It ties in with my dislike for closed shops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Another right wing talking point with no facts in evidence. I'd be interested to read about some of these cases.
    Teacher unions protecting bad teachers is definitely a politicized topic.

    For example, I did a google search for "teacher protected by union", and it came up with the following, among many others:

    These two appear to be opposed to unions protecting bad teachers:
    Dirty dozen: 12 bad teachers protected by tenure and unions | Fox News
    Unions protect bad teachers, not students : The Daily Collegian

    And this appears to support unions, countering the idea that they protect bad teachers:

    Six Reasons Teachers Unions Are Good for Kids


    Edit: I should note that I have not read any of those articles, due to lack of time at the moment.
    Education.

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  2. #232
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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    [...] I suppose I mainly object to the idea of dues being collected by the employer, from an employee's paycheck. [...]
    We all know what would happen if it was not done that way... the same thing that would happen if income taxes were not being collected by the employer

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    We all know what would happen if it was not done that way... the same thing that would happen if income taxes were not being collected by the employer
    Perhaps so.

    But to me it seems like a system designed to make it easy for a union to collect dues despite minimal interaction with it's members - perhaps even to the point of seeing them as semi-faceless money generation units, like I suspect some management types do. And politicians.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    well you obviously have something against unions. did they touch you inappropriately? show me on the doll where they touched you.
    Awww...I hurt the poor little "laborer w/o brains" feelings. Keep paying for that job and voting for the people who could care less about you. ROTFLMMFAO.

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Perhaps so.

    But to me it seems like a system designed to make it easy for a union to collect dues despite minimal interaction with it's members - perhaps even to the point of seeing them as semi-faceless money generation units, like I suspect some management types do. And politicians.
    The trouble with reality is that you have to deal with it in order to function within it. Payroll deductions are a facet of reality.

    The same of redistributing taxes in the form of charity verus expecting everyone being charitable enough to support all those in need voluntarily. The reality of that latter approach was the reason that the 'up front' collection process (taxes) was implemented. I would suggest that it is not the up front collection that is distasteful, but the all-too-common human condition that necessitates it. But that's another discussion . . . .

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    The trouble with reality is that you have to deal with it in order to function within it. Payroll deductions are a facet of reality.

    The same of redistributing taxes in the form of charity verus expecting everyone being charitable enough to support all those in need voluntarily. The reality of that latter approach was the reason that the 'up front' collection process (taxes) was implemented. I would suggest that it is not the up front collection that is distasteful, but the all-too-common human condition that necessitates it. But that's another discussion . . . .
    The way I look at it, union membership should be voluntary - thus no closed shops and no up front dues subtracted from paychecks.

    Not sure how accurate Wikipedia is on the subject, but I glanced at it and it mentioned that some unions do not except dues collected by the employer, and in fact a few require that they be collected directly from the member.
    Education.

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The way I look at it, union membership should be voluntary - thus no closed shops and no up front dues subtracted from paychecks. [...]
    You are entitled to your opinion but rational thought as well as historical precedent should clearly show that neither would work, except to weaken and destroy unions. Of course I realize that very result is why some with a partisan agenda support an opinion mirroring yours (not saying that is your reason).

    In any case, union membership is voluntary; always has been. There are plenty of non-union jobs for those that in general desire lower pay, fewer benefits, and less protection from abusive employers. Enjoy!

    One union I know of collected the dues from the vacation fund, which was paid directly to the union from the employer, then paid to the member. Effectively the same as a direct employer deduction. Bottom line, and as I said before, everyone knows why these fees are collected up front, so it's really not a topic of useful discussion.

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    No relevancy in this day and age.

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    You are entitled to your opinion but rational thought as well as historical precedent should clearly show that neither would work, except to weaken and destroy unions. Of course I realize that very result is why some with a partisan agenda support an opinion mirroring yours (not saying that is your reason).

    In any case, union membership is voluntary; always has been. There are plenty of non-union jobs for those that in general desire lower pay, fewer benefits, and less protection from abusive employers. Enjoy!

    One union I know of collected the dues from the vacation fund, which was paid directly to the union from the employer, then paid to the member. Effectively the same as a direct employer deduction. Bottom line, and as I said before, everyone knows why these fees are collected up front, so it's really not a topic of useful discussion.
    IMO unions are only necessary if employers ARE abusive or whatever.

    If you work for a good employer, you don't need a union, and frankly I think that's the main good thing about unions - they encourage employers to make it so their employees are not interested in that kind of thing.

    Of course that can be bad if they go about it the wrong way, too.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Are Labor and Trade Unions Still Necessary in Our Economy?

    I wish you well in your search for good employers... offhand I'd say your odds are less than 50/50, decreasing proportionally with the size of the employer.

    FedEx (non-union) and UPS (union) drivers are a useful comparison, altho UPS has absorbed some non-union companies and continues to operate them as non-union subsidiaries. The union UPS drivers have a much better deal, and both companies are profitable with comparable rates to consumers. Using that as a case study, there is no union evil that the corporate-fueled talking heads (and politicians) incessantly try to find/manufacture and pound into their minions' heads.

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