View Poll Results: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

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  • Im a right leaning American, yes.

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Thread: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

  1. #41
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That is the difference between someone who can look at things, even their own beliefs, objectively and critically, and someone who can't or refuses to.
    I believe if you honer the truth, it will honor you. I would rather try and make the world a slightly better place than have it serve me completely.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  2. #42
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I believe if you honer the truth, it will honor you. I would rather try and make the world a slightly better place than have it serve me completely.
    Going through life with blinders on causes one to miss a lot, and not see the context in what they do see.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #43
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post


    In medicine, we quickly learn that what matters is outcomes-not intent to help. Things are too important to think otherwise.

    In politics-that distinction is often blurred. Programs that claim to improve education but dont. The war on poverty that failed to lower poverty. The war on drugs.

    Intent often is seen as somehow benevolent and superior to whatever the actual outcomes are. Rhetoric is used as a shield to objective failure, turning questions of fact into questions of motive, etc.

    What do you say?



    What matters is results.

    If you start out with the intention to 'fix' a car and end up with a pile of junk that won't start you have accomplished nothing.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 08-06-14 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #44
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Going through life with blinders on causes one to miss a lot, and not see the context in what they do see.
    I've always believed that was the profound difference in our nations founding fathers that they were willing to put the truth of higher reasoning and equality above their own personal interests. It's why they were able to come up with such amazing documents as the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, from having studied all the previous man made flaws of proceeding governance.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  5. #45
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    What if hypothetically you find out that liberal policies created the best overall outcome for the general population. Would you support them?

    Now, I don't want to hear why it's impossible, only what if it were the case. Are you really a winner?
    It would depend on the cost and I don't mean monetary cost either. EVERTHING has a price. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I would also ask what exactly do you mean when you say best overall outcome for the general population? The devil is always in the details. Presuming said cost was acceptable, and I agreed with the terms of best outcome, then I would probably support them regardless of the perceived liberalism of said policies.
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  6. #46
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    It would depend on the cost and I don't mean monetary cost either. EVERTHING has a price. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I would also ask what exactly do you mean when you say best overall outcome for the general population? The devil is always in the details. Presuming said cost was acceptable, and I agreed with the terms of best outcome, then I would probably support them regardless of the perceived liberalism of said policies.
    I was trying to get him to admit that political philosophy wasn't as important as everyone's well being. It's a primary concept necessary to success of the country. I meant to include the best possible scenarios for the outcome. It's probably not realistic but just a hypothetical question.
    Last edited by grip; 08-06-14 at 06:31 AM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  7. #47
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Just what I thought, I gave you a straight up question to prove you honestly want progress above ideology and you dodged it. I'm a registered Republican from the south and voted twice for Reagan before you were probably legal, but even I will change my position when shown wrong.
    Where are your examples, and how did we get on your life's story? Me thinks you wanted to emote instead of discuss. Hypotheticals to reality. Questions of fact into questions of motive.

  8. #48
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I was trying to get him to admit that political philosophy wasn't as important as everyone's well being. It's a primary concept necessary to success of the country. I meant to include the best possible scenarios for the outcome. It's not probably realistic but just a hypothetical question.
    The problem even with hypotheticals is what is best for one is often not best for another. And there lies the rub. The real question is what are you willing to live with? What are you willing to compromise on and keep compromising on, not just a temporary compromise to get an agreement, but a permanent compromise to keep it.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  9. #49
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Where are your examples, and how did we get on your life's story? Me thinks you wanted to emote instead of discuss. Hypotheticals to reality. Questions of fact into questions of motive.
    Still no honest answer? Will you or will you not support liberal solutions that prove positive outcomes? It's that simple.



    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    The problem even with hypotheticals is what is best for one is often not best for another. And there lies the rub. The real question is what are you willing to live with? What are you willing to compromise on and keep compromising on, not just a temporary compromise to get an agreement, but a permanent compromise to keep it.

    I'm not debating the probability of compromises being possible or correct, just the ideological reasoning that someone can't take their blinders off for a moment.
    Last edited by grip; 08-06-14 at 06:32 AM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #50
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    Re: In politics does Intent trump Outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paxaeon View Post
    `
    Head Start was originally formed as a summer school progrram that got way out of control. As an investment, Head-Start is a complete failure.

    Anecdotal - Head-Start is not a federally managed program. All the Feds do is hand out grants. It's the individual cities and communities that administer the funds. Case in point; Milwaukee, WI;

    `

    "The Social Development Commission, Milwaukee County's largest Head Start provider for more than 40 years, suffered a major blow Thursday when federal officials announced they had dropped it from the program." - source
    `

    Social Development Commission or SDC turned into almost like a country club where only friends could be employed. Most of the Head-Start money went into it's administrative overhead like 6 figure salaries for an already bloated supposed not-for profit organization. Maybe 15 cents for every dollar it got actually went to help those who needed it.

    I have little good to say about the program other than it should scale back it's funding and concentrate on its original purpose; summer school for kids who need it.

    `
    More evidence of the failure of big govt-and the fact that power takes care of itself. Head Start, is a dhhs program started with the intent of improving the outcomes of poor children. Its was a lie that snowballed over decades (and generations) and here we are with over a million kids WHO DO NO BETTER as a result. Now its about taking care of illegal immigrant children and redistributing money-thats what the left does.

    LAUSD is the poster child, and in the roughest neighborhoods they were spending 16k per year per child. Scores remained low, grad rates remained low, but a bunch of nice admin buildings and new admin employees were hired. They spend very little on public education in Utah, and it always has one of the best achievement rankings in the US-because its not about money-its about the home environment, the decisions of parents, etc. Income is mentioned as a predictive factor for success and it is-but not how many assume-that money will equate to better outcomes-but because the type of person who makes the right decisions, tends to do the same with their children.

    You say we should scale back its funding, currently at 8 billion a year-8 thousand dollars per year. I say it should be dissolved and the funds used on things demonstrably proven to work. How many hours of one on one tutoring does that buy? How many laptops? Books? English lessons? I recommend Khan Academy to my students and its free.


    The outcome is what matters here, not the intent to help.
    Head Start Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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