View Poll Results: should games like this be banned?

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  • yes

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Thread: should games like this be banned?

  1. #61
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I've seen several people fall into the WOW hole.

    Never really got it myself. Leveling treadmills annoy me to the point of not finishing games.

    And the overall point kinda ties into my hobby horse regarding persuasion science in our political discourse. The simple fact that people are exploiting "holes" in our hardware and software to influence our opinions and our behavior.

    Its not "mind control" but it is real.

    Does we want to see models like this game in children's programming? Or adult for that matter? "That show isn't even good. But I can't stop watching it..."
    I think we will increasingly be a part of a society which actively develops these techniques and uses them to exploit people. I am hopeful that morality will change once this is recognized and it will increasingly become taboo.

  2. #62
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I think we will increasingly be a part of a society which actively develops these techniques and uses them to exploit people. I am hopeful that morality will change once this is recognized and it will increasingly become taboo.
    Education of people to the reality of this science would go a long way without running into first amendment issues. Actually provides some resistance.

    It is interesting to note that some countries actually license persuasion practitioners and some techniques are actually forbidden.

    Not WHAT they say but HOW they say it.

    I shudder to think what this technology is doing to kids as it and they mature.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Bull****, what I hear is an excuse.

    Who came up with that? The American Psychiatric association (those people are moronic)?
    Look up cognitive linguistics and then how much money the public relations industry pulls in a year.

    Then get back to us.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  4. #64
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Education of people to the reality of this science would go a long way without running into first amendment issues. Actually provides some resistance.
    Its going to require a significant culture change. The american mythos believes in the idea that the human will is the dominant force when its increasingly becoming evidence that the mental force exerted by the PfC is one signal among many in the brain. Until that culture change happens, people are going to be willing victims of this field.

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    It is interesting to note that some countries actually license persuasion practitioners and some techniques are actually forbidden.

    Not WHAT they say but HOW they say it.

    I shudder to think what this technology is doing to kids as it and they mature.
    I didn't know that. I am not sure that is an effective long term technique, but I will have to research that.

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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    That's where I strongly disagree. People can be strongly controlled by taking advantages in these weakness in brain function essentially resulting I'm the assertion of control, which imposes a level of the requirement you dismiss.
    The usual argument for censorship is that people with weaker brains will be excessively influenced by certain types of media technology and content. The people with the "weaker brains" are never the people who advocate for censorship, it has usually been the young, women and the poor. Apparently the people who do the censoring have a superior ability to withstand exposure to the toxic media or content since they get the most exposure to it, but still have the will power to ban it.

    Look at the history of censorship and the banning of new media technology and provocative content and you see a history of excessive fear, panic and arrogance. We no longer fear playing pool, player pianos, pinball machines, arcade games etc, yet all have been banned. The books, movies, songs and artists that have been banned in the past are now considered harmless, and some of their works are now considered classics.

    Banning a computer game is just as stupid as banning Lady Chatterly's lover, Lenny Bruce's comedy shows, Allen Ginsburg's Howl, the Kingmen's Louie Louie or the film I am Curious (Blue).
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-02-14 at 05:42 PM.

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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Its going to require a significant culture change. The american mythos believes in the idea that the human will is the dominant force when its increasingly becoming evidence that the mental force exerted by the PfC is one signal among many in the brain. Until that culture change happens, people are going to be willing victims of this field.



    I didn't know that. I am not sure that is an effective long term technique, but I will have to research that.
    Wendell potter defected from his job as head of communication for a major insurer over the anti ACA propaganda war the industry waged.

    He wrote a book about it called "Deadly Spin" where he talks a lot about how the science is applied, how it works, the lack of any formal ethical standards for the industries that practice it. Good read.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    I have just yet to understand why entire companies should be put to death and thousands of people out of jobs just because they know how to make a great video game.

    That is entirely the opposite of American, to kill business and with it, opportunity.
    It's consistent with the USA's recreational drug policy, with the same reasoning. If there ever is a ban on such games, it will be as unsuccessful as the drug wars have been, with many of the same unintended, but now predictable, consequences.

  8. #68
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The usual argument for censorship is that people with weaker brains will be excessively influenced by certain types of media technology and content. The people with the "weaker brains" are never the people who advocate for censorship, it has usually been the young, women and the poor. Apparently the censors have a superior ability to withstand exposure to the toxic media or content since they get the most exposure to it, but still have the will power to ban it.

    Look at the history of censorship and the banning of new media technology provocative content and you see a history of excessive fear, panic and arrogance. We no longer fear playing pool, player pianos, pinball machines, arcade games etc, yet all have been banned. The books, movies, songs and artists that have been banned in the past are now considered harmless, and some of their works are now considered classics.

    Banning a computer game is just as stupid as banning Lady Chatterly's lover, Lenny Bruce's comedy shows, Allen Ginsburg's Howl, the Kingmen's Louie Louie or the film I am Curious (Blue).
    The old school thought on censorship was based on certain messages being bad messages. This new approach isn't necessarily about the message, but the delivery mechanism of the message. The message could be good or bad, but that's not the point.

    The concept of candy crush is emulated in other games that have been around for 30 or so years. Doctor Mario is essentially the same game, but doctor mario isn't manipulative and that is the difference. The content is still there but the mechanism is different.

    This is a new game which isn't about "bad ideas" but about communication. Perhaps the answer isn't to ban candy crush, but to regulate it.

    As far as your comment about weaker people. Nobody believes they are affected by it as people are proud. This is why we shouldn't use anecdotal evidence for this type of thing.

    Here is a good example of manipulative behaviors commonly employed by flash games.

    Gamasutra: Ramin Shokrizade's Blog - The Top F2P Monetization Tricks

    A coercive monetization model depends on the ability to “trick” a person into making a purchase with incomplete information, or by hiding that information such that while it is technically available, the brain of the consumer does not access that information. Hiding a purchase can be as simple as disguising the relationship between the action and the cost as I describe in my Systems of Control in F2P paper.

    Research has shown that putting even one intermediate currency between the consumer and real money, such as a “game gem” (premium currency), makes the consumer much less adept at assessing the value of the transaction. Additional intermediary objects, what I call “layering”, makes it even harder for the brain to accurately assess the situation, especially if there is some additional stress applied.
    The counter argument tends to be that if people try hard enough, they can bypass this sort of thing, and that is probably true, if they can effectively do it 100% of the time (but nobody really can do it 100% of the time) and because the onus is on the individual to resist the manipulation instead of a fair and balanced exchange, it goes against principals of a fair and informed market place.

  9. #69
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Okay, hang on. Your quote didn't indicate that at all. I do recall now that my daughter has mentioned a new game she's playing wherein when you gain a status, like Mayor, you really have to do the mayoral stuff, it's not just a bs title that you carry as you do the shooting and finding. If that's what you're talking about, then that's more of a sim game with rpg overtones. I do think sim games are worthy.
    It isn't like that either. I think. I'll give you an example of what the game is like. One of the races, the Quarians, created a type of VI called the Geth. Eventually, the Geth's adaptive consciousness developed to the point of self-awareness, and the Quarians tried to exterminate them. They failed, and were forced to evacuate their homeworld, Rannoch. After centuries of living on ships, their immune systems are practically nonexistent (no disease to develope an immunity to), so they have to wear environmental suits outside of their own ships. The Reaper invasion begins about the same time as the Quarians decide to retake their homeworld. Unfortunately, the Geth decided to ally themselves with the Reapers right after they were attacked, and of course Shepard has to save their asses. Depending on your decisions throughout the last two games, there might be an option to save both the Quarians and the Geth, but it's very difficult to get this lucky combination, unless you look up how to do it ahead of time. If you didn't import your save, or if you made some bad calls, you will have to decide which race will be wiped off the face of the Earth, er... universe.

    The first two clips show Shepard communicating with a downed Reaper, but the third doesn't. Interestingly, all three seem to be from people who chose a "renegade" pathway over "paragon" options, judging by the conversation options they selected.

    Clip one is saving the Geth and the Quarians, clip two is saving the Geth, and clip three is saving the Quarians. All the clips are less than ten minutes long.

    The second and third clips are from games where someone didn't import a save file. Either that, Legion didn't survive the suicide mission, or they decided to sell the deactivated Geth to Cerberus.







    Your choices impact the scene, of course, but also have a serious impact on what war assets you acquire. if the army you assemble isn't large enough, the mission to retake Earth will fail, and you will be unable to stop the Reapers using the Crucible project.
    Last edited by Jesse Booth; 08-02-14 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by truthatallcost View Post
    Pepe Booth strikes again.

  10. #70
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Booth View Post
    It isn't like that either. I'll give you an example of what the game is like. One of the races, the Quarians, created a type of VI called the Geth. Eventually, the Geth's adaptive consciousness developed to the point of self-awareness, and the Quarians tried to exterminate them. They failed, and were forced to evacuate their homeworld, Rannoch. The Reaper invasion begins about the same time as the Quarians decide to retake their homeworld. Unfortunately, the Geth decided to ally themselves with the Reapers right after they were attacked, and of course Shepard has to save their asses. Depending on your decisions throughout the last two games, there might be an option to save both the Quarians and the Geth, but it's very difficult to get this lucky combination, unless you look up how to do it ahead of time. If you didn't import your save, or if you made some bad calls, you will have to decide which race will be wiped off the face of the Earth, er... universe.

    The first two clips show Shepard communicating with a downed Reaper, but the third doesn't. Interestingly, all three seem to be from people who chose a "renegade" pathway over "paragon" options, judging by the conversation options they selected.

    Clip one is saving the Geth and the Quarians, clip two is saving the Geth, and clip three is saving the Quarians. All the clips are less than ten minutes long.

    The third clip is from a game where someone didn't import a save file. Either that, Legion didn't survive the suicide mission, or they decided to sell the deactivated Geth to Cerberus.







    Your choices impact the scene, of course, but also have a serious impact on what war assets you acquire. if the army you assemble isn't large enough, the mission to retake Earth will fail, and you will be unable to stop the Reapers using the Crucible project.
    I'm not watching those youtubes, I'll go by what you've typed and what I know about rpgs. In the end, even if the stream of the story is effected by your choices, the fact remains that your only interaction with the game is to kill baddies or find trinkets. The vids that imply a story line could easily be removed and one sentence inserted indicating your next thing to find which will undoubtedly have baddies to kill along the way and once you get wherever the trinket is.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

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