View Poll Results: should games like this be banned?

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  • yes

    2 4.55%
  • no

    39 88.64%
  • depends on other factors or details (explain in a post)

    1 2.27%
  • rootabega

    2 4.55%
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Thread: should games like this be banned?

  1. #111
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Has there been any reduction in use with banned items?
    depends on the ideology of the advocacy group you ask.

  2. #112
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    It does as pressures mean you are not in complete conscious control of that choice.
    Yes you are. A misunderstanding of addiction and what it means for a person to choose freely. Libertarian free will is a myth, we don't have it (and we wouldn't want it even if we did - Dennet has a great book on the topic if you're curious). We have a form of compatabilist free will. Choosing freely isn't about somehow being outside the causal chain when making a decision. We are embedded in the causal chain, a part of it. Being somehow outside of it doesn't even make sense - your thoughts, beliefs, desires should cause you to choose certain things. It wouldn't be freedom at all if that weren't the case. Imagine if decision-making were causally-independent of your beliefs and desires. That you believe you heard your baby crying upstairs, that you care about your baby, that you want to to go check on your baby, but instead of those thoughts and desires causing you to decide to go check on your baby, you instead decide to run out into the street and do cartwheels. That's not freedom. We need to be embedded in the causal chain to have freedom, to have control over our decisions and behavior.

    The world around us influences us (by influencing our beliefs, desires), and we in turn influence the world (by deciding to do action X). Acting freely is about acting in accordance with your thoughts, intentions, and desires. When someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X, we say you are not doing X freely because you are not doing X in accordance with your thoughts, intentions, desires. You are doing it against your will.

    In the case of addiction, a person may develop competing desires - a desire to quit in addition to a desire to, let's say, smoke. The person will only successfully quit smoking indefinitely when the desire to quit (the desire to avoid the health problems, the bad teeth, the smelly clothes and house, the cost) outweighs the desire to smoke (the desire to experience the pleasurable feeling, the relaxation, etc that comes with smoking) indefinitely.

    The reason addicts relapse is because our desires and beliefs change over time, they ebb and flow. When an addict relapses, it's not because some subconscious, reptilian part of his brain has taken over control of his hand and is forcing him against his will to drive to the gas station and buy a pack of cigarettes and light up. It's because his desire to smoke has temporarily surged and exceeded his desire to quit, probably due to some external factor like stress. In that moment, he wants to smoke more than he wants to quit. He's still acting freely. No one has a gun to his head. His reptile brain hasn't taken control of his movements. Afterwards, his desires may ebb back they way they came, he may regret the relapse and want to quit again.

  3. #113
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I seek to see the world as it is and not as I prefer it, even when that means accepting things I dislike (which there are many). People here mistake my description of reality as me advocating for what i am describing, but thats the culture of the forum, so i don't blame them.

    In terms of what I put faith in, I will say that the world has proven to me to be a pretty dark place at times, and while humanity generally moves forward, individuals may not, despite their best efforts. Because of that, I tend to put the most emphasis in what can be done today and practically instead of speculating on ideals that likely will never be achieved. This is evident in my philosophy as I focus on results and what is in my scope of control to give myself the best life possible given my cards at any given moment. Its all anyone can really do.

    Humanity encompasses both the best and worst of potential. There are children born with good and bad brains. Some can do great things and be born with a talent for using will power to overcome impulses and some will never be able to. Humanity as a whole tends to do so so, not good enough to achieve any sorts of long term project successes (societies tend to regress towards the mean over time in terms of culture) but well enough to push technology and other types of sophistication forward in order to achieve positive growth in things like health, well being, intelligence, happiness, etc. But a common factor in the things being pushed forward is that they can be externalized from the mind. Social organizational plans, science, technology, spirituality (to some extend), and other things can be documented. If it were just up to humans (if we never developed writing for example), I very much doubt we would have gotten past villages and constant tribal warfare. This is precisely, I think, because people will always be more responsive to their needs and constraints then their will (because this is what passes on the genes and those needs and constraints are just natural adaptions to our niche in nature), except for brief and inspiring moments in history (during periods of transition where pent up frustrations give birth to new ideas and philosophies)
    You address many good points, but what I see as a fallacy is when people take their own limitations and chain themselves to those limitations without thought for what they could be. Some people suffer horrific abuse or trauma, and stay forever chained those those affects while others can move forward. It could be genetics, and to a certain extent it probably is. However, I also see one's attitude as a central player in this game (of life). Someone could be born with a lower IQ but with practice can learn to adapt by using emotional intelligence. Also, someone might have a higher IQ but have blunted emotions and must learn to adapt living in a world where emotions tend to be a deciding factor. Adaption is the key, and this is humanity's greatest strength.

    I do agree with your assessment on people having tribal mentalities. Imo, as a species, our next greatest leap in evolution will be the overall ability to think on a universal level instead of being stuck with a tribal mentality. This is perhaps the most limiting factor of the human mind. Also, the human ego needs to shrink a lot as well, lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Yes you are. A misunderstanding of addiction and what it means for a person to choose freely. Libertarian free will is a myth, we don't have it (and we wouldn't want it even if we did - Dennet has a great book on the topic if you're curious). We have a form of compatabilist free will. Choosing freely isn't about somehow being outside the causal chain when making a decision. We are embedded in the causal chain, a part of it. Being somehow outside of it doesn't even make sense - your thoughts, beliefs, desires should cause you to choose certain things. It wouldn't be freedom at all if that weren't the case. Imagine if decision-making were causally-independent of your beliefs and desires. That you believe you heard your baby crying upstairs, that you care about your baby, that you want to to go check on your baby, but instead of those thoughts and desires causing you to decide to go check on your baby, you instead decide to run out into the street and do cartwheels. That's not freedom. We need to be embedded in the causal chain to have freedom, to have control over our decisions and behavior.

    The world around us influences us (by influencing our beliefs, desires), and we in turn influence the world (by deciding to do action X). Acting freely is about acting in accordance with your thoughts, intentions, and desires. When someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do X, we say you are not doing X freely because you are not doing X in accordance with your thoughts, intentions, desires. You are doing it against your will.

    In the case of addiction, a person may develop competing desires - a desire to quit in addition to a desire to, let's say, smoke. The person will only successfully quit smoking indefinitely when the desire to quit (the desire to avoid the health problems, the bad teeth, the smelly clothes and house, the cost) outweighs the desire to smoke (the desire to experience the pleasurable feeling, the relaxation, etc that comes with smoking) indefinitely.

    The reason addicts relapse is because our desires and beliefs change over time, they ebb and flow. When an addict relapses, it's not because some subconscious, reptilian part of his brain has taken over control of his hand and is forcing him against his will to drive to the gas station and buy a pack of cigarettes and light up. It's because his desire to smoke has temporarily surged and exceeded his desire to quit, probably due to some external factor like stress. In that moment, he wants to smoke more than he wants to quit. He's still acting freely. No one has a gun to his head. His reptile brain hasn't taken control of his movements. Afterwards, his desires may ebb back they way they came, he may regret the relapse and want to quit again.
    Addiction is mostly physiological. It takes the conscious mind a great deal of strength to overcome it.

  4. #114
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon View Post
    Addiction is mostly physiological.
    As is the mind. Addictions, desires, will to quit - are matters of the mind. Which, then, are caused by goings-on in the brain. So it's no surprise that science has discovered relationships between physiological processes in the brain and addiction (just like numerous other matters of the mind). But that doesn't mean matters of addiction are beyond a person's control, beyond control of a person's mind. That only follows if you believe that a person's mind is somehow distinct from all that.

    There's a current trend to excuse addicts of their behavior because we've found a physiological basis. That they can't control it because it's physiological. But that's simply a mistake. Their ability to control it, their "will" is just as physiological. So that's no barrier at all. They CAN control it. Understanding that you're not powerless to your addiction is key to overcoming it. And everyone that has overcome an addiction without needing brain surgery to repair some faulty physiological wiring is proof of that.

    Unfortunately, there are those that run with this idea in the wrong direction. Telling an addict he is weak because he has not yet overcome his addiction isn't productive because it tends to make the addict believe he is weak and feel worthless, undeserving of redemption. No one that feels that way about his or her self is going to overcome much of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon View Post
    It takes the conscious mind a great deal of strength to overcome it.
    It can, sure.

  5. #115
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    This is what Candy Crush Saga does to your brain | Dana Smith | Science | theguardian.com

    Candy Crush is basically designed to exploit human neurochemical weaknesses.



    This is the sort of mechanism which fuels gambling addiction. As science and psychology becomes more sophisticated, more problems with how the human brain processes information will be revealed, opening the door for more ways to exploit that weakness.

    I personally view this as extremely unethical at best as it purposefully undermines free will. What is your take?
    should games like this be banned?-images-21-jpg should games like this be banned?-download-8-jpg
    Activity of the normal human brain. The human brain while playing Candy Crush

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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    should games like this be banned?-images-22-jpg

    I voted rootabega ...for obvious reasons...

  7. #117
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    I'm not into gaming, I have better things to do with my time.

    In general, I'm opposed to censorship, if you don't like something, nothing requires you to participate in it.




    " The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen."
    ~ Tommy Smothers
    I agree with your opposition to censorship. Someone doesn't like the game...don't play it. But don't force your likes or dislikes on others. I'm for free choice.

    Now...I've never played that game, though I'm aware it's pretty popular on Facebook. But that's only because I'm more the kind of person who likes MMORPG's. I get more enjoyment out of killing some other human's in-game character in a brutal, devastating manner...while doing my very best to avoiding the same happening to me. I'm afraid Candy Crush would seem rather tame to me.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  8. #118
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    This is what Candy Crush Saga does to your brain | Dana Smith | Science | theguardian.com

    Candy Crush is basically designed to exploit human neurochemical weaknesses.



    This is the sort of mechanism which fuels gambling addiction. As science and psychology becomes more sophisticated, more problems with how the human brain processes information will be revealed, opening the door for more ways to exploit that weakness.

    I personally view this as extremely unethical at best as it purposefully undermines free will. What is your take?
    I say yes, this should not be allowed. If not for anything, just for the time it takes away while trying to make sense of what really may matter around you.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  9. #119
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The usual argument for censorship is that people with weaker brains will be excessively influenced by certain types of media technology and content. The people with the "weaker brains" are never the people who advocate for censorship, it has usually been the young, women and the poor. Apparently the people who do the censoring have a superior ability to withstand exposure to the toxic media or content since they get the most exposure to it, but still have the will power to ban it.

    Look at the history of censorship and the banning of new media technology and provocative content and you see a history of excessive fear, panic and arrogance. We no longer fear playing pool, player pianos, pinball machines, arcade games etc, yet all have been banned. The books, movies, songs and artists that have been banned in the past are now considered harmless, and some of their works are now considered classics.

    Banning a computer game is just as stupid as banning Lady Chatterly's lover, Lenny Bruce's comedy shows, Allen Ginsburg's Howl, the Kingmen's Louie Louie or the film I am Curious (Blue).
    There's a difference between what you describe and designing a game using known "exploits" in human cognition.

    An example I use is the kind of market research they do at malls where they buy you lunch for watching a commercial and getting your feedback/response. Lets say its a commercial for minivans aimed at soccer moms. But when tested it not only doesn't make those soccer moms want that minivan it makes them actually hostile to not only minivans but the company that made them.

    One would think that would be a bad thing, and it is for that particular commercial. But that commercial will be dissected to discover what pissed those soccer moms off.

    For the next time a client wants to piss off soccer moms. When someone wants soccer moms pissed at a political candidate.

    Using algorithms to determine the rate of rewards in a game to maximize addiction isn't the same thing as making an enjoyable game.

    It crosses a line.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  10. #120
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    Re: should games like this be banned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    That same argument has also been used for film and television because of their pervasiveness and alledgedly unique power to influence. Its still a bad argument. The rest of us shouldn't be prevented from enjoying something because some people can't enjoy it moderately and responsibility. The argument that we should ban pleasurable activities to protect the weak from addiction could also be applied to food since so many people eat excessively.

    If you think a video game is dangerous, get ready for technology that can directly tap into parts of people's brains, which is not far off. Few people know that marketers, PR people and advertisers are already using functional MRIs to test the effectiveness of their messges.
    They've already been using solid science for years. MRIs are just refining techniques.

    And a good number of them work whether one is aware of them or not.

    A hundred years of market research, which is simply human stimulous/response patterns, databased and cross referenced with the advent of the computer provided predictable, repeatable methods. The field of cognitive linguistics as well. Now watching your brain work in real-time.

    Would you feel differently if they were secretly adding just enough heroine to your breakfast cereal that you could never get enough? Because that is the cognitive equivalent of a lot of techniques in play. They slide right by our "filters".

    I don't advocate censorship, but education would go a long way towards providing defenses against these techniques and would allow our society to decide what level of subconscious manipulation is acceptable.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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