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Whites Need Not Apply?[W:68]

Mutliple Choice - Check all statement you see as true:

  • A white person should not teach minority children.

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • A person of a minority race cannot teach white children.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Race is not a factor on a person's competency to teach anything.

    Votes: 37 61.7%

  • Making the race of a teacher an issue is in itself racist.

    Votes: 18 30.0%

  • I have a completely different perspective and will explain.

    Votes: 3 5.0%
  • Total voters
    60
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, not really. No matter what race of person they hire, they won't be "part of" at least 2 out of 3 of the cultural studies they're supposed to be teaching. Unless they should only limit it to hiring someone who is multiracial (Latin, Asian, and African -- but no white), in which case they probably didn't experience ANY of those cultures because the social experience of multiracial people is often very different. Or if we put 3 extra teachers on the pay role for only one class each, which seems like a phenomenal waste of money.

And even if they are the race being discussed in one of those classes, they're no guarantee they experienced the typical culture. I can tell you for damn sure the experience and social orientation of a black person who grew up in the suburbs of MN is in a different world from one who grew up in the inner city. So which black culture are we aiming at? And how is it somehow less of an issue if, say, a black person is teaching about Asian and Latin culture, than it is if a white person is teaching it? How does the black person know more about it? Or are we just presuming white people are the only race that's incapable of understanding social adversity? Tell that to some older women, or men who grew up in poor neighborhoods for that matter.

The entire premise of the objection is based on a bunch of stereotypes and hypocrisy. They aren't bothered by having a teacher who is a different race than the racial history they're teaching. If they were, they would want to hire a different race teacher for each class or give the job to someone who is partially each of those races (which is stupid and racist in itself, but beside the point).

Their real objection is simply to a white person. There's really no other explanation for it.
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The experience of minorities is relatively similar in the USA in regards to inequality and racism and such issues, so I disagree with your initial premise. Since in the USA there is a cultural experience of such issues for most minorities, it is relevant.
 
Summerwind said:
The experience of minorities is relatively similar in the USA in regards to inequality and racism and such issues, so I disagree with your initial premise. Since in the USA there is a cultural experience of such issues for most minorities, it is relevant.
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Not really. I wouldn't debate they experience it at any level of society, but there are lots of completely different social systems that each race can exist in. There's not much commonality at all in the kinds of experiences a black person growing up poor in Alabama and a black person growing up middle class in a Haitian community in New York will have. It's the same way the WASP-y family my dad grew up in is in a different world from the Italian Catholic neighborhood my mother grew up in. They're nothing alike.

Do they have to have the same kind of social experience as the predominant history they're teaching? Well, that'll be tough, given that the kinds of minority people who come out of college are inherently better off than the most subjugated of their people, not to mention they weren't even alive for most of it and thus have no experience with it at all.

But even if we just accept that on its face, then, again, what you're saying is that not only has no white person ever experienced social injustice, but they are simply intellectually incapable of understanding it. And if you think that, then perhaps you need to watch some Tim Wise. Heard about him through a black professor, by the way, who (rightfully) made no claims that her Ivy-league educated self had any damn idea what it was like to be a black person at the bottom. Because her social experience was different. Her blackness didn't imbue her with psychic knowledge of every type of black culture in the country.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Not really. I wouldn't debate they experience it at any level of society, but there are lots of completely different social systems that each race can exist in. There's not much commonality at all in the kinds of experiences a black person growing up poor in Alabama and a black person growing up middle class in a Haitian community in New York will have. It's the same way the WASP-y family my dad grew up in is in a different world from the Italian Catholic neighborhood my mother grew up in. They're nothing alike.

Do they have to have the same kind of social experience as the predominant history they're teaching? Well, that'll be tough, given that the kinds of minority people who come out of college are inherently better off than the most subjugated of their people, not to mention they weren't even alive for most of it and thus have no experience with it at all.

But even if we just accept that on its face, then, again, what you're saying is that not only has no white person ever experienced social injustice, but they are simply intellectually incapable of understanding it. And if you think that, then perhaps you need to watch some Tim Wise. Heard about him through a black professor, by the way, who (rightfully) made no claims that her Ivy-league educated self had any damn idea what it was like to be a black person at the bottom. Because her social experience was different. Her blackness didn't imbue her with psychic knowledge of every type of black culture in the country.
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You're free to cling to your opinions. With the things I've seen, I know you're wrong.

Now does that mean a white shouldn't be given a chance, I'm not convinced of that. However history and reality offer the idea that they have a reasonable perspective to be concerned about a white MAN (which btw I think also plays very much into it) teach about the culture of minorities.
 
ecofarm said:
I don't know the "institutionalized racism" argument, but I'll attempt to shed some light.

Minorities cannot be racist against the majority because there are not societal impacts of their racial bigotry regarding systemic injustice/privilege at the social scale in question (national or global). As racism is a social construct, it can only be defined by social factors.

Now, regarding your incorrect context. You see, the white person can move and no longer be the subject of racial bigotry. A black person cannot move away from racial bigotry present throughout society. Since a white person can move to escape, and a black person cannot, these are not the same situations. Thus, the context to be examined in determining systemic injustice/privilege is that of national or global.


.02
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A black person can move just as easily as a white or any other version of human.
 
Summerwind said:
You're free to cling to your opinions. With the things I've seen, I know you're wrong.

Now does that mean a white shouldn't be given a chance, I'm not convinced of that. However history and reality offer the idea that they have a reasonable perspective to be concerned about a white MAN (which btw I think also plays very much into it) teach about the culture of minorities.
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I'm wrong that there are different cultures in America? I'm wrong that a degreed professional probably didn't experience the same level of subjugation as a poor person who dropped out of high school?

That's just blatant reality denial.

Again, why doesn't it bug them that if they hired a minority person, that person wouldn't be from the culture of the other 2 classes they teach? Why is that only a big deal if the person is white?
 
DA60 said:
Man!!!

Will I be glad (and dead, unfortunately) when there are virtually no more 'races'...just mutts.


Btw, I am 'white'.
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We already are mutts. Some just don't seem to want to believe their ancestors were randy bastards, that's all.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I'm wrong that there are different cultures in America? I'm wrong that a degreed professional probably didn't experience the same level of subjugation as a poor person who dropped out of high school?

That's just blatant reality denial.

Again, why doesn't it bug them that if they hired a minority person, that person wouldn't be from the culture of the other 2 classes they teach? Why is that only a big deal if the person is white?
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The quality of value you give your details is wrong.
 
Hatuey said:
That's great, however:

Fast Facts

figure-cuf-2.gif


In general, 20% of your professors will be of another race and 80% will be white. I doubt those numbers were any different 20 years ("decades") ago when minority graduation rates were even lower. So no, this isn't by any means an institutional thing such as "Whites need not apply". It's one incident, in one school. Your attempt to try and paint it as some sort of institutionally based attack on whites is laughable. If anything, statistics for hiring closely reflect society as a whole and not a bias in either direction. It's a nice try at the old "poor whitey" shtick.
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I don't know what you've been reading, but it certainly hasn't been this thread. Do have a nice day.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Sorry, once a poll is made it can't be altered.
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Yes, Red just told me the same thing. Oh well. My screw up. Nobody to blame but me. Darn it. :) Thanks anyway.
 
Summerwind said:
I'm kind of on a fence with this one. I can see the perspective that one who's lived it and studied it would likely be more qualified, and there is a reasonable history of white teachers not properly teaching minorities. On the other hand, this individual might be the exception to the rule. I might instead of demanding another teacher, be demanding a no-fault 120 day probationary period during which time he can be terminated without the usual union style recourse and must leave without incident. Of course, there are problems even within that solution.

This one isn't an easy one to cipher out. Both sides have valid povs.
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While I appreciate your reasonable and appropriate point of view, my initial gut response is do they really? Would it be a valid point to object to a black cultural studies teacher on our experience that he will be militantly activist and teach a lot of nonsense that will perpetuate racism? Or that he will no possibly be fair to the Asian and Middle East point of view as well as the black one, whatever that is?

Is there EVER any justification to judge somebody by no other criteria than the color of his skin?
 
AlbqOwl said:
]
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Sure... as long as black people are not allowed to teach Greek, Roman or Western Civilization history... or the Enlightenment, or Chinese or Indian history... or anything about the Space Race or Presidential History prior to Obama.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Sure... as long as black people are not allowed to teach Greek, Roman or Western Civilization history... or the Enlightenment, or Chinese or Indian history... or anything about the Space Race or Presidential History prior to Obama.
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That's the whole point. The color of one's skin does not qualify him or her for special skills or knowledge or even a common empathy with his/her students. One of the best teachers of Shakespeare I ever had was a guy who was half Japanese and half American Indian. He was positively brilliant. And my professor of European history in college was a black woman and she too was very, very good. Condoleeza Rice was a specialist in Russia when she got her B.A. in political science and she wrote her dissertation for her PhD on communist Czechoslovakia that had almost no black people at the time (or any other ethnic group that Condi claims in her heritage.) Would that disqualify her from teaching a course on communist Europe which I'm pretty sure would be wonderful for anybody, black or white or any other ethnicity, who was blessed to be in one of her classes?
 
AlbqOwl said:
That's the whole point. The color of one's skin does not qualify him or her for special skills or knowledge or even a common empathy with his/her students. One of the best teachers of Shakespeare I ever had was a guy who was half Japanese and half American Indian. He was positively brilliant. And my professor of European history in college was a black woman and she too was very, very good. Condoleeza Rice was a specialist in Russia when she got her B.A. in political science and she wrote her dissertation for her PhD on communist Czechoslovakia that had almost no black people at the time (or any other ethnic group that Condi claims in her heritage.) Would that disqualify her from teaching a course on communist Europe which I'm pretty sure would be wonderful for anybody, black or white or any other ethnicity, who was blessed to be in one of her classes?
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I agree. The very notion that this white guy can't properly teach or encapsulate the issues faced is ridiculous. I am a teacher and we teach a unit on WWII and the Holocaust. I do a very good job and I am anything but Jewish.
 
What's the problem here?

:shrug:

So long as you're not white, straight, or religious -- discrimination and racism are perfectly acceptable...

:thumbs:
 
PirateMk1 said:
A black person can move just as easily as a white or any other version of human.
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A black person cannot move away from racial injustice/privilege because it's systemic. A white person can because it's not. This is because geographic areas of black domination of social sectors are limited and they do not permeate all of society (they're not systemic).

As blacks cannot escape racial injustice/privilege, and whites can, the situations are clearly not the same.

I am referring, of course, to the US.
 
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ecofarm said:
A black person cannot move away from racial injustice/privilege because it's systemic. A white person can because it's not. This is because geographic areas of black domination of social sectors are limited and they do not permeate all of society (they're not systemic).

As blacks cannot escape racial injustice/privilege, and whites can, the situations are clearly not the same.

I am referring, of course, to the US.
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Hello Africa??? Sure as hell aint white dominated there. Black domination is very systematic there. Detroit, Chicago, DC, Atlanta, just to name a few in the US. They can escape just as well as the rest of us. White people don't rule the whole bloody world. Not even close to it. That's even assuming your injustice/privilege argument is even valid, which its not. The people who come up with that horse crap obviously are ill educated fools who apparently don't know what a societal culture is.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Hello Africa??? Sure as hell aint white dominated there. Black domination is very systematic there.
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Did you not see that I specified the US?

If you'd like to change contexts, that's not a problem. In the case of, say, Kenya, blacks are the dominate group and Arabs are the minority. In this case, blacks can be racist against Arabs but Arabs cannot be racist against blacks. The standards for this assessment are the same as assessing racism in the US - social power dynamics.

Detroit, Chicago, DC, Atlanta, just to name a few in the US. They can escape just as well as the rest of us.
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I've already explained that the context in question, when examining societal injustice, is national. Of course, those cities are not dominated by blacks in every sector of society anyway.

White people don't rule the whole bloody world. Not even close to it.
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If you'd like to change context to global, that's great. At the global scale, whites are the dominate group. Let's remember, social power dynamics are not determined by numbers. Sure, numbers often coincide with power, but there are examples when this was or is not the case. A perfect example is South Africa during Apartheid; blacks had numbers but whites had the power which is the essential factor in evaluating racial injustice at the societal level.

That's even assuming your injustice/privilege argument is even valid, which its not. The people who come up with that horse crap obviously are ill educated fools who apparently don't know what a societal culture is.
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Are you claiming racism by whites against blacks and other minorities does not exist systemically in the US?
 
ecofarm said:
Did you not see that I specified the US?

If you'd like to change contexts, that's not a problem. In the case of, say, Kenya, blacks are the dominate group and Arabs are the minority. In this case, blacks can be racist against Arabs but Arabs cannot be racist against blacks. The standards for this assessment are the same as assessing racism in the US - social power dynamics.



I've already explained that the context in question, when examining societal injustice, is national. Of course, those cities are not dominated by blacks in every sector of society anyway.



If you'd like to change context to global, that's great. At the global scale, whites are the dominate group. Let's remember, social power dynamics are not determined by numbers. Sure, numbers often coincide with power, but there are examples when this was or is not the case. A perfect example is South Africa during Apartheid; blacks had numbers but whites had the power which is the essential factor in evaluating racial injustice at the societal level.



Are you claiming racism by whites against blacks and other minorities does not exist systemically in the US?
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Yes actually. Racism by whites toward others in this country is nonexistent by most any degree of measure. Racism of ANY kind by ANYONE is exceptionally limited to may as well be nonexistent. What you call racism is simply not. Its called culture and societal dynamics. Believe me having been overseas I know what racism is, especially the kind employed by the powers that be. You want a really good example go to China or South East Asia or to any country in the Middle East, Kuwait and the UAE whom are supposedly enlightened with plenty of Western comforts should be interesting. To be blunt racism here is mostly a figment of peoples imaginations anymore, its mostly people trying to game the system or make a buck or some perceived slight. If you want the real deal, you need to leave the country. If a real racists showed up most people would be shocked A) B) they wouldn't know what to do. Social dynamics exist the world over, there are always minorities and they are always going to feel they are getting the shaft in someway. Its called life.

I missed the US part. :3oops:
 
PirateMk1 said:
Yes actually. Racism by whites toward others in this country is nonexistent by most any degree of measure.
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I don't believe that's true at all.
 
ecofarm said:
I don't believe that's true at all.
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Believe what you want, but the fact is you have to look long and hard to find a racist in this country, let alone one that's "white". You go to the middle east or elsewhere you find them by just picking up a pebble and toss it into the crowd or go to the local government office. The average US citizen who has not been out of country doesn't know and most likely hasn't seen racism in person, only heard about third hand.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Believe what you want, but the fact is you have to look long and hard to find a racist in this country, let alone one that's "white".
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Not true.
 
Kal'Stang said:
It IS racist. Even by "institutionalized racism" arguments. Here you have black leaders who are in positions of authority demanding that a white person be replaced....because he's white. I'd LOVE to see the apologists try and argue past this one.

Jesus. WTH can people not learn to see past skin color?
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Never. Reasons such as this are why we will always have racism. This simply proves that it's not limited to one color against another. There will always be racism from both sides, and to think otherwise is like burying your head in the sand.
 
ecofarm said:
Not true.
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In your neighborhood, what percentage are racist?
In your town?
In your state?
In the US?

I would say less than 1% are genuinely racist. I personally think 1% is high. What do you think the number is?(Total of ALL genuine racists)
 
PirateMk1 said:
In your neighborhood, what percentage are racist?
In your town?
In your state?
In the US?

I would say less than 1% are genuinely racist. I personally think 1% is high. What do you think the number is?(Total of ALL genuine racists)
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That's not an easy estimate. In my neighborhood in central Florida (poor), perhaps 10%. But if I go outside of the university town, to a surrounding (country boy) town, that number goes up drastically.

I suppose it depends on ones definition of a "genuine" racist. I would consider someone that thinks blacks are generally lazy, unethical, etc to be racist, even though they don't sport swastikas. I know people that have black friends, but they will say things like "I only get ripped off by black people". Obviously, that's not true; it's just an ingrained belief that blacks are less trustworthy than whites. Of course, they consider their black friends to be "exceptions", and they would never say to their black friends what they say to me. I would also consider a belief that blacks are generally less intelligent than whites to be racist, even if the person is not a neo-nazi. Then there's those who think "white culture" is superior, or that "white solidarity" is not racist.

I think if you show me 10 white people, I'll show you 2 that have racially bigoted beliefs. If we do this exercise in a small town in central FL, I'll show you 5 or more.

I figure you have a higher standard for "genuine racist" than I.
 
ecofarm said:
That's not an easy estimate. In my neighborhood in central Florida (poor), perhaps 10%. But if I go outside of the university town, to a surrounding (country boy) town, that number goes up drastically.

I suppose it depends on ones definition of a "genuine" racist. I would consider someone that thinks blacks are generally lazy, unethical, etc to be racist, even though they don't sport swastikas. I know people that have black friends, but they will say things like "I only get ripped off by black people". Obviously, that's not true; it's just an ingrained belief that blacks are less trustworthy than whites. Of course, they consider their black friends to be "exceptions", and they would never say to their black friends what they say to me. I would also consider a belief that blacks are generally less intelligent than whites to be racist, even if the person is not a neo-nazi. Then there's those who think "white culture" is superior, or that "white solidarity" is not racist.

I think if you show me 10 white people, I'll show you 2 that have racially bigoted beliefs. If we do this exercise in a small town in central FL, I'll show you 5 or more.

I figure you have a higher standard for "genuine racist" than I.
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Stop being so intolerant. Whites aren't racist anymore, in fact white men are the most persecuted people in history. Unless they're Democrats, then they get a pass from the media.
 
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