View Poll Results: What's the best indicator(s) of the success/failure of the "war on poverty"?

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57. You may not vote on this poll
  • How much money is allocated to social programs and welfare

    5 8.77%
  • Helping the most people possible live more comfortably regardless of their income or lack of it

    4 7.02%
  • By how many people are actually able to get out of poverty

    48 84.21%
  • Other

    9 15.79%
  • Death Star

    3 5.26%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: "War on Poverty"

  1. #61
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    If you were banned, you wouldn't be here. That's why it's called a perma-ban. Any who, I wouldn't ask you to back up your assertions anyways. You're not the type to do that.
    I know we can't all be columbo but if Im here now, could it have been a temp ban I was referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    And yet:

    - there are far more people living well above global indicators of poverty than any other point history. Source: Poverty: Not always with us | The Economist
    - there is far more global economic regulation than at any point in history. That makes the argument that it is free trade that is responsible for people coming out of poverty nothing more than absolute nonsense.
    Regulation kills prosperity. Planned economies fail. The free market, unhindered by a distant and one-size-fits-all govt is the solution.

  2. #62
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I know we can't all be columbo but if Im here now, could it have been a temp ban I was referring to?
    There is no temp banned. Anywho. Admit you saw your claim, realized you had no ground to stand on after it was completely obliterated in thread by me - then ran off on when challenged on the matter through a formal debate. Ain't no shame in it.

    Regulation kills prosperity. Planned economies fail. The free market, unhindered by a distant and one-size-fits-all govt is the solution.
    Hahahaha - That's nice but nobody is discussing that. However the rest of your post (in bold) is the reason why you're way out of your league. You just agreed with this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by JoG
    But be it as it may, the US free trade policy since 1945 has lifted enormous numbers of people out of starvation into the middle class. Alone since 1989 it has been about 2 billions. This has arguably been the outstanding development program of human history.
    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative
    Absolutely-and in fact the same recipe for success, when adopted by other nations has rapidly delivered people from even the worst poverty.
    The US "free trade" policy has come hand in hand with the most globally regulated economy of any period in human history. This makes your claim that it is "free trade" that has pushed people out of poverty patently false. Again, you just agreed that the US (which falls behind "socialist" free trade heavens like Canada, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, etc) has pushed people out of poverty through "free trade agreements" that have caused the global economy to become far more regulated, taxed and victim to situations where monopolies are created. Congratulations. You've divided your ideology by zero and must now deal with

    1) More people than ever coming out of poverty.
    2) The global economy marching towards its most regulated point ever.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 07-30-14 at 05:11 AM.
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  3. #63
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Absolutely-and in fact the same recipe for success, when adopted by other nations has rapidly delivered people from even the worst poverty. And it was from adopting capitalist policies-China and India are the best examples.
    That is a very nice summing up and understandable to even the left leaning in the population.

  4. #64
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The US "free trade" policy has come hand in hand with the most globally regulated economy of any period in human history. This makes your claim that it is "free trade" that has pushed people out of poverty patently false. Again, you just agreed that the US (which falls behind "socialist" free trade heavens like Canada, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, etc) has pushed people out of poverty through "free trade agreements" that have caused the global economy to become far more regulated, taxed and victim to situations where monopolies are created. Congratulations. You've divided your ideology by zero and must now deal with

    1) More people than ever coming out of poverty.
    2) The global economy marching towards its most regulated point ever.
    Free commerce never meant zero regulation. Anyone to say that is only limitedly educated in economics or trying to bend the truth by using deceptive language. You shouldn't learn from that type of people other than that propaganda is a bad consultant.

  5. #65
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Marriage (or an analog by another name if you prefer), meaning a male and female adult in the home means two incomes, more flexibility, less negative impacts to children, and a better life. Save me the red herrings, I am speaking generally. A single parent household (over 70% in many demos), lack of even basic education (LA county has a 30% HS graduation rate) , and the inability to retain a job do not lead to success. Lets stop pretending and being PC-this is too important to ignore.
    You don't want to be PC? Fine. Marriage isn't stable. It fails half the time. Having kids is idiotic too if you're struggling to stay out of poverty. They're either neglected or expensive as hell. If you care about the poor having a better life, consider how pitiful the minimum wage is. Not this expecting 18 year old kids fresh out of high school to marry just so they can get by.

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Im not instructing anybody-Im recognizing the facts of life and stating this isn't an insurmountable goal.
    If it's their only way to survive because repubs refuse to raise minimum wage it's in fact instructing them. It's the "facts of life" because that's how the lobbyists have instructed the politicians to make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Most people who work and fall under the poverty level DONT WORK FULL TIME HOURS.
    Yeah because their employer cut hours or there's nothing hiring full time, so they take what they can get. Even office jobs are going remote desktop. 40 hour work weeks will disappear for the majority soon anyway i predict, as labor becomes more and more obsolete. It's archaic and a new model is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Two income earners trump one.
    And 14 trumps 2. I guess super-polygamy will soon be in vogue

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Education and HS graduation trump being a drop out.
    I did extremely well in HS and can tell you i learned far more outside school. Perhaps some entry level employers care about that diploma, but the joke's on them. Don't pretend graduating magically turns some 70 IQ teenager into a highly employable savant. Even college grads are finding this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Working and being just above the poverty level is preferable to being under the poverty level, and getting just enough handouts to keep one on the democrat vote plantation.
    Depends on the situation. You know how many applications are filled out for ghetto jobs saying "don't hire me" just so they stay on unemployment benefits? I've seen it plenty. It can become not worth the constant struggle. Try living out in rural area needing to drive 30 miles to $8/hr job. That's 2.5hr of work just for gas. So they should move right. But they're 18 and can't afford a place. Bummer. Nothing like a married couple living with parents till age 23 just so the mcdonald's ceo can eek out a bit more profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    There is no better delivery vehicle from poverty than capitalism. Your marxist class struggle BS has demonstrably failed, time and time again-all over the world, and in various cultures, for the last century.
    Lol capitalism totally failed. Look up 2008 bank and auto bailouts. That's socialism to the max. Everyone except the bankers and vulture capitalists are living with the consequences, especially the young, so spare me the lecture.

    What other culture allowed such a vast amount and proportion of the wealth to go to 1% of the population? This isn't 1890s europe. You haven't offered a viable solution either. 22% of *kids* live in poverty. This "let them marry or starve" mentality, well, if you were super rich, sooner or later the poor will come for you.

  6. #66
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    None. You compare current poverty rates to historical poverty rates and factor in the introduction of government programs as well as measures to keep people from entering poverty and you have yourself a pretty good indicator of whether the war on poverty has been successful. The US as a country has achieved a level of wealth that can't even be understood by people in 3rd world countries. Even the poorest Americans can count on dozens of government programs to help them, as well as hundreds of charities to pick up the slack. Whether Americans use them effectively or not is up to them but we certainly aren't facing starvation or poverty like the kind seen by our southern neighbors. FFS, we live in a country where the poverty line is set at $23K! There are entire families in Pakistan living comfortably on a 4th of that! So yeah, none of those even measure the success or failure of the "war on poverty" because the US' war on poverty is a bit of a joke to begin with.
    Eh? US Dept of Health and Human Services sets the poverty line at about $12k for 1 person, $15k for 2. You have to look at costs not just flat incomes as if $12k in US translates to the same in pakistan. Does gas cost $4/gallon there? In fact it seems $1.08 average. So there's your 1/4.

    Everything from housing to bread is also cheaper

    I mean why do you think crime and suicide has gone up with the 2008 crash? Absolutely there are pakistan level desperately poor in america. Take a visit to detroit sometime.
    Last edited by chromium; 07-30-14 at 07:03 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There is no temp banned. Anywho. Admit you saw your claim, realized you had no ground to stand on after it was completely obliterated in thread by me - then ran off on when challenged on the matter through a formal debate. Ain't no shame in it.



    Hahahaha - That's nice but nobody is discussing that. However the rest of your post (in bold) is the reason why you're way out of your league. You just agreed with this statement:





    The US "free trade" policy has come hand in hand with the most globally regulated economy of any period in human history. This makes your claim that it is "free trade" that has pushed people out of poverty patently false. Again, you just agreed that the US (which falls behind "socialist" free trade heavens like Canada, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, etc) has pushed people out of poverty through "free trade agreements" that have caused the global economy to become far more regulated, taxed and victim to situations where monopolies are created. Congratulations. You've divided your ideology by zero and must now deal with

    1) More people than ever coming out of poverty.
    2) The global economy marching towards its most regulated point ever.
    There is no temp ban. Mkay.
    Moving on I dont jump to your tune and I admit nothing. The largest period of growth in American history occurred BEFORE WW2, and it was largely unregulated. Regulation hinders free markets, and free markets are the largest creator of wealth the world has ever known.

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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That is a very nice summing up and understandable to even the left leaning in the population.
    Yup. The animation probably helps too.

    Liberty is fresh again. People need to be introduced to fresh air-the stale marxist fail just plain stinks.

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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Free commerce never meant zero regulation. Anyone to say that is only limitedly educated in economics or trying to bend the truth by using deceptive language. You shouldn't learn from that type of people other than that propaganda is a bad consultant.
    Isnt it remarkable? Its like they think daddy warbucks and monty burns are running around closing orphanages. Discredited marxist fail, concealing reality.

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    Re: "War on Poverty"

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    You don't want to be PC? Fine. Marriage isn't stable. It fails half the time. Having kids is idiotic too if you're struggling to stay out of poverty. They're either neglected or expensive as hell. If you care about the poor having a better life, consider how pitiful the minimum wage is. Not this expecting 18 year old kids fresh out of high school to marry just so they can get by.



    If it's their only way to survive because repubs refuse to raise minimum wage it's in fact instructing them. It's the "facts of life" because that's how the lobbyists have instructed the politicians to make it.



    Yeah because their employer cut hours or there's nothing hiring full time, so they take what they can get. Even office jobs are going remote desktop. 40 hour work weeks will disappear for the majority soon anyway i predict, as labor becomes more and more obsolete. It's archaic and a new model is needed.



    And 14 trumps 2. I guess super-polygamy will soon be in vogue



    I did extremely well in HS and can tell you i learned far more outside school. Perhaps some entry level employers care about that diploma, but the joke's on them. Don't pretend graduating magically turns some 70 IQ teenager into a highly employable savant. Even college grads are finding this out.



    Depends on the situation. You know how many applications are filled out for ghetto jobs saying "don't hire me" just so they stay on unemployment benefits? I've seen it plenty. It can become not worth the constant struggle. Try living out in rural area needing to drive 30 miles to $8/hr job. That's 2.5hr of work just for gas. So they should move right. But they're 18 and can't afford a place. Bummer. Nothing like a married couple living with parents till age 23 just so the mcdonald's ceo can eek out a bit more profit.



    Lol capitalism totally failed. Look up 2008 bank and auto bailouts. That's socialism to the max. Everyone except the bankers and vulture capitalists are living with the consequences, especially the young, so spare me the lecture.

    What other culture allowed such a vast amount and proportion of the wealth to go to 1% of the population? This isn't 1890s europe. You haven't offered a viable solution either. 22% of *kids* live in poverty. This "let them marry or starve" mentality, well, if you were super rich, sooner or later the poor will come for you.
    No guarantees are made-welcome to the world. This does not change that successful behavior leads to success, and perhaps even more elucidating to the left is that failure leads to more fail. If half of marriages fail (based on multiple factors, none particularly relevant atm) that does not change the fact that a child born to a single parent household is likely doomed to a life of diminished outcomes. Nothing you say changes this.

    Raising the minimum wage increases unemployment amongst the very demographic its purported to help. Making people comfortable in whats intended to be a START, and a STEPPING STONE is not helping anyone. When you subsidize mediocrity you get more of it.

    Most people dont earn minimum wage because they quickly move up. This is a fact. The whole "employer cut hours" excuse is just that-however the biggest expense in most business is labor-what do you think raising the minimum wage and fail like the ACA does to labor costs? I realize you may not have taken even a basic econ class but I have faith in you.

    I never said 18 year olds should get married, I was saying if ANYONE has a kid raised in a single parent home they will suffer. Thats not the same thing-and in fact 18 year old are expected to be poor-its a start. One might even conclude that having a kid when you are poor and KNOW it will lead to great disadvantages in life perhaps its a good idea not to have a kid. Of course, welfare created incentives to do just this-we call them welfare babies-and that behavior is being passed from one single parent to the next generation of single parent.

    Congrats-14 does trump 2, but I dont know that 14 is legal. I actually think it should be. Graduating from high school being a necessity is not analogous to "learning more outside of school". That said our ****ty public education system (more govt fail) gives us a steady stream of people who cant read or give back exact change, or even mail a letter but MAN do they hate republicans. People with an IQ of 70 can be functioning members of society-but paying them to sit on the couch, or 14 bucks an hour to flip burgers is going to insure more of just that.

    As for your "ghetto applicants" you are making my point-we are creating incentives for failure.

    A McDonalds CEO is not wealthy at the expense of his/her employees-wealth creation does not work like that. Its not a pie. Heres where that econ class would be helpful.

    Capitalism is the best system EVER devised to deliver the poor from poverty PERIOD. Why do you think people float here on tires? Try real hard.
    Bailouts, etc are ANYTHING BUT capitalism. Do you understand what a free market is? Failing models NEED to be allowed to fail in order to be replaced by a more sustainable model. Again-basic econ-in fact the removal of failed business models is the most important part of a free market. Or else its just trumping up fail, marxist style.

    1%. What do you think the wealth distribution is in China or Venezuela? Look it up, and come back an apologize for making such an ignorant statement.

    Who the hell said "let them marry or starve"? This will be interesting. Who's coming for me? Is that supposed to be a threat? Is it time for the occupy movement to kick it up a notch?

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