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Should a retailer refuse to sell alcohol to a legal adult if a minor is present?

Should a retailer refuse to sell alcohol to a legal adult if a minor is present?

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radcen said:
That's not really the question, though. "Should be allowed" is one thing, "should they?" is another. IOW: just because you can doesn't mean you should. They are within their legal rights to do so, and was pointed out in the first post. Is what they are doing proper and/or ethical?
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But the question should not be: is what they are doing proper and/or ethical. If we believe in liberty; if we believe that under liberty each person is free to be who and what he/she is so long as no rights of others are violated; then we cannot dictate to another what must be proper or ethical for that person or what cannot be proper or ethical for that person. Personally I don't believe children are harmed in any way by seeing their parents buy beer or wine or consuming it in moderation. And I say that as a child of alcoholics whose childhood was made a living hell in part by booze.

But it is not for me to dictate to another person how he must see or understand alcoholic beverages or whether he should condone or accept such as the way society should be.

And my understanding of what liberty is extends to a person doing business on his own personal property as much as anywhere else.
 
If the child was ugly, then I could understand. Everyone knows that alcohol causes children and this store is just helping the gene pool.
 
I think a retailer should bypass the adult and the child and sell directly to the liver.

Every potential patron must provide a liver test result from an annual test where they give you a liver health number (1-100).

Score over 50 and you can buy all the booze you want. Between 30-49, only a certain amount of booze per day. Under 30, you cannot buy booze at all (applies to bars as well).


Of course, this is total bullsh!t...okay, I'm bored.
 
While the store owner should have the right to conduct their business as they see fit, I do not see the issue with kids being around alcohol. Leaving the kid on the sidewalk, down the street at the Starbucks, or in a car seems far more dangerous.

Va has state owned ABC stores, and while I don't recall seeing kids in the stores, I don't recall seeing signs prohibiting it either. OTOH, there are kids in abundance in the wine aisles at Costco and the local grocery store, and mommy is buying. I doubt if this situation creates many alcoholic kids.

Regarding kids in bars. My kids often go with me to restaurants, and I do have a drink or wine. Both my kids drink responsibly as adults.
 
AlbqOwl said:
But the question should not be: is what they are doing proper and/or ethical. If we believe in liberty; if we believe that under liberty each person is free to be who and what he/she is so long as no rights of others are violated; then we cannot dictate to another what must be proper or ethical for that person or what cannot be proper or ethical for that person. Personally I don't believe children are harmed in any way by seeing their parents buy beer or wine or consuming it in moderation. And I say that as a child of alcoholics whose childhood was made a living hell in part by booze.

But it is not for me to dictate to another person how he must see or understand alcoholic beverages or whether he should condone or accept such as the way society should be.

And my understanding of what liberty is extends to a person doing business on his own personal property as much as anywhere else.
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But there are also other rules and laws the democratically elected officials of the US have decided upon. One of these laws is the law that it is illegal for people under the age of 21 to drink. Personally I think that should be brought down to 18 years of age but still, all liberty is framed by legal paragraphs. Those legal limitations are almost always to protect vulnerable people or to protect the public. They are not meant to deny liberty but to strengthen liberty IMO.
 
radcen said:
There's something of controversy going on here. A local retailer is refusing to sell alcohol to legal adults if a minor is present with them. Doesn't matter how old or young the minor is, and it doesn't matter if the minor is the adult's own kid.

The retailer is not breaking any laws by doing this, so that's not the issue... but should they? How would you react if a retailer refused to sell you alcohol just because you had your kid with you?

Please note that in this state it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their own minor children alcohol.
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Is it against the law in your state to sell liquor in a store when a minor is present?
 
I think they should be able to, however I don't think they should do it because I think it is a ridiculous business decision.

I also think that there are a lot of people that don't know the laws about alcohol in their state. For instance, there was an episode of "What Would You Do" where they set up a man who was buying alcohol for his 16 year old son at the liquor store. The majority of those who objected to this said "it's against the law", when technically, in that state it wasn't (New Jersey) because they have exceptions in the laws to allow for parents to give permission for their children to drink in their presence (and possibly on other private property, plus some areas allow other relatives to have that say as well). Even the cop from Maine (I think it was) claimed that it was illegal to allow his son to drink underage, which wasn't true. Now, in Maine, it is illegal to host a party for underage friends of your children, as this guy was trying to do, and in both states it is illegal to encourage a minor to drink (which this guy was also doing), however, they were saying explicitly that it was simply allowing the son to drink was illegal.

I don't know what state the OP is in or where this is occurring, but I do think that this is an important factor because many don't actually realize that there are exceptions in a lot of states to underage drinking laws, especially when it comes to parental permission on private property.
 
radcen said:
There's something of controversy going on here. A local retailer is refusing to sell alcohol to legal adults if a minor is present with them. Doesn't matter how old or young the minor is, and it doesn't matter if the minor is the adult's own kid.

The retailer is not breaking any laws by doing this, so that's not the issue... but should they? How would you react if a retailer refused to sell you alcohol just because you had your kid with you?

Please note that in this state it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their own minor children alcohol.
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Should we be barred from driving if a child is present? If a movie contains swearing, should the movie be stopped if a child is present? Ridiculous.
 
Jerry said:
The policy discriminates against people with children.
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No it doesn't. ABC does not refuse to sell to parents with children. It refuses to sell to college seniors with freshmen.
 
ecofarm said:
No it doesn't. ABC does not refuse to sell to parents with children. It refuses to sell to college seniors with freshmen.
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What's "ABC"? I'm talking about Walmart. I couldn't buy beer for the BBQ as I bought everything else because I brought one of my sons with me. I don't even live in a collage town. No, a retailer should not refuse to sell just because a minor is present.
 
Jerry said:
What's "ABC"? I'm talking about Walmart. I couldn't buy beer for the BBQ because I brought one of my sons with me.
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How old is he?
 
radcen said:
There's something of controversy going on here. A local retailer is refusing to sell alcohol to legal adults if a minor is present with them. Doesn't matter how old or young the minor is, and it doesn't matter if the minor is the adult's own kid.

The retailer is not breaking any laws by doing this, so that's not the issue... but should they? How would you react if a retailer refused to sell you alcohol just because you had your kid with you?

Please note that in this state it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their own minor children alcohol.
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Its up to the owner of the business as far as I am concerned. I can go elsewhere if I so choose.
 
It IS ridiculous. Walmart has started doing this too.

I can't even buy wine with my 22 y/o son with me, if he doesn't have ID with him. There is no law against it in AZ, so it must be a liability thing.
 
radcen said:
There's something of controversy going on here. A local retailer is refusing to sell alcohol to legal adults if a minor is present with them. Doesn't matter how old or young the minor is, and it doesn't matter if the minor is the adult's own kid.

The retailer is not breaking any laws by doing this, so that's not the issue... but should they? How would you react if a retailer refused to sell you alcohol just because you had your kid with you?

Please note that in this state it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their own minor children alcohol.
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An privately owned should be able to refuse service to anyone they want to.
 
MaggieD said:
One of the reasons people start their own businesses is so they can do pretty much whateverthehell they want to. It's stupid in my book. I wouldn't buy any alcohol at all from the guy if he ever refused me 'cause me child was with me. But that's his right. There's a meat market in the next town that everyone goes to . . . we all call the owner "The Meat Nazi".

Customer: "How do I cook your prime rib to well done? How long will it take?"
Meat Nazi: Well done????!!!!!! No prime rib for you.
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prime rib.....well done!....:eek:
 
radcen said:
There's something of controversy going on here. A local retailer is refusing to sell alcohol to legal adults if a minor is present with them. Doesn't matter how old or young the minor is, and it doesn't matter if the minor is the adult's own kid.

The retailer is not breaking any laws by doing this, so that's not the issue... but should they? How would you react if a retailer refused to sell you alcohol just because you had your kid with you?

Please note that in this state it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their own minor children alcohol.
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An alcohol retailer can be held liable for damages if he sells booze to someone who is obviously grogged out already and they end up in an accident. If the seller has reason to believe that someone is making a straw purchase for a minor I suppose the same principle would apply. The straw purchaser as well as the seller could be held liable if the minor ends up drinking himself to death or getting in an alcohol related auto accident or something.

I think the bottom line is that the seller has to exercise prudence in order to protect his own ass, especially in this era of ubiquitous surveillance cameras and a sue-happy public.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Texas is strange. If a minor is supervised by their parents it is legal for them to drink. But you can't buy liquor on Sunday, you can't buy any alcohol after midnight on Monday-Thursday, after 1:00 on Saturday, or before noon. Bars have to stop serving at two am. Liquor stores have to close at nine pm. drinking on the property where it is prohibited is a felony. You can't consume alcohol within 1000 feet of a school. Than you have dry counties that have restaurants that can serve sdo long as you sign a piece of paper joining their club. They can serve all night long.

The liquor laws here are absolutely stupid.
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You don't know Texas at all I see. Texas isn't unified in it's drinking laws. Some areas are dry, some are wet, and some are moist, unless something changed dramatically since I left. Dallas area was a hoot. Farmer's Branch totally dry, Addison had a leg that came very close to FB and other dry or moist cities in the Dallas Metro and Addison was fully wet, so you could walk three blocks and legally buy booze, but you couldn't legally carry it home.

Anyway, maybe the wet/dry/moist is changed though I have never heard that it was.
 
Summerwind said:
No, he shouldn't be allowed to withhold legal goods purchased legally that he normally sells to others.
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I agree, for most purchases. But.... due to the potential for harm from irresponsible drinking, any alcohol vendor should be permitted to refuse any sale for any reason- or simply for "no stated reason".

I believe that gun store owners have this same privelage. Even if the purchaser is legally able to buy they weapon and has the cash, the owner of the store can refuse the sale simply because he has a bad feeling about something.

Cardinal said:
Should we be barred from driving if a child is present? If a movie contains swearing, should the movie be stopped if a child is present? Ridiculous.
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Driving?- probably not, unless you are in say, an extreme demolition derby and the child is not old enough to make a risk evaluation on their own.

In the end, due to the potential for harm to third parties if some products are mis used, any vendor selling weapons, alcohol, or in Colorado, weed should be able to refuse any sale they dont feel comfortable with. They should not even need to give a reason.
 
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nic11 said:
It IS ridiculous. Walmart has started doing this too.

I can't even buy wine with my 22 y/o son with me, if he doesn't have ID with him. There is no law against it in AZ, so it must be a liability thing.
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No doubt it is a liability thing. If someone buys alcohol, then gives it to a minor, then some lawyer somewhere has figured out a way to stick the retailer with the liability for whatever that minor might do while under the influence. That's how absurd our liability laws have become.

BTW, I just returned from a trip to Idaho, where I noticed signs in some of the businesses: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I don't see those in California, Oregon, Washington, or Nevada. It must be part of a state law.
 
Peter King said:
But there are also other rules and laws the democratically elected officials of the US have decided upon. One of these laws is the law that it is illegal for people under the age of 21 to drink. Personally I think that should be brought down to 18 years of age but still, all liberty is framed by legal paragraphs. Those legal limitations are almost always to protect vulnerable people or to protect the public. They are not meant to deny liberty but to strengthen liberty IMO.
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This however does not go to the legality of the issue. Nobody questions whether it is legal for a father to buy beer or wine or whatever. It is. And in this case there is really no question that he is buying the booze for a minor. The issue is that the proprietor has a personal moral objection to selling the booze to somebody in plain sight of his kids. Whether or not we think that a valid point or think it borders on being pretty squirrely and/or fanatical, the issue is whether a private business owner has the right to make such a rule. And in my opinion yes he does. A private business owner should always be able to run his business in a way that is moral and ethical to the business owner.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No doubt it is a liability thing. If someone buys alcohol, then gives it to a minor, then some lawyer somewhere has figured out a way to stick the retailer with the liability for whatever that minor might do while under the influence. That's how absurd our liability laws have become.

BTW, I just returned from a trip to Idaho, where I noticed signs in some of the businesses: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I don't see those in California, Oregon, Washington, or Nevada. It must be part of a state law.
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isn't that just their dog whistle for 'no niggers allowed'
 
Summerwind said:
You don't know Texas at all I see. Texas isn't unified in it's drinking laws. Some areas are dry, some are wet, and some are moist, unless something changed dramatically since I left. Dallas area was a hoot. Farmer's Branch totally dry, Addison had a leg that came very close to FB and other dry or moist cities in the Dallas Metro and Addison was fully wet, so you could walk three blocks and legally buy booze, but you couldn't legally carry it home.

Anyway, maybe the wet/dry/moist is changed though I have never heard that it was.
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I know Texas pretty well actually. I have never heard of a "moist" county but I believe it. There are laws enforced by the TABC (Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission) and then there are local laws.
 
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