View Poll Results: What is economic freedom?

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  • the right to own things

    20 83.33%
  • the right to take what other people have

    4 16.67%
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Thread: economic freedom

  1. #21
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Really? "The right to take what other people have"?

    C'mon, guy, that's the silliest poll I've seen in many a year.
    I'll ask you again. Are you unaware of the debate over positive vs. negative rights?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  2. #22
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I'll ask you again. Are you unaware of the debate over positive vs. negative rights?
    Guy, you're arguing about whether taxes are morally right or wrong. And you know what? Conservatives are absolutely RIGHT that taxes are "wealth redistribution".

    That said, you don't seem to get that taxes are what a nation needs to function: all its regulatory, administrative, military, judicial, and social support functions depend on tax revenue...

    ...and if you want to see what life is like in a nation where there's little or no enforceable income tax and not much in the way of corporate tax, come with me to the Philippines. There, they have no enforceable income tax, and there's very little in the way of corporate taxes. According to conservative economic dogma, they SHOULD be kicking ass, economically speaking.

    But they aren't. There's a section there that has showrooms for Lamborghini, Maserati, and Rolls Royce (complete with a shotgun-armed guard standing at the door, smiling as he lets you in)...and one klick away you're back among the squatters sending their kids to knock on your car window begging for money. I'm not kidding.

    It all boils down to this, guy - higher taxes are the price of admission to life in a first-world democracy. You cannot have the comprehensive physical and social infrastructure that a first-world democracy requires without higher taxes. If you still hate the thought of paying higher taxes, then there's lots and lots of third-world nation you can go to...and where you'll probably live a good and happy life if you've got a bit of money. But if you want to live in a modern first-world democracy, you MUST pay the price of admission: higher taxes.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #23
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    That said, you don't seem to get that taxes are what a nation needs to function:
    economic freedom-strawmanillustration-jpg






    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    all its regulatory, administrative, military, judicial, and social support functions depend on tax revenue...
    economic freedom-captain-obvious-jpg






    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    It all boils down to this, guy - higher taxes are the price of admission to life in a first-world democracy. You cannot have the comprehensive physical and social infrastructure that a first-world democracy requires without higher taxes. If you still hate the thought of paying higher taxes, then there's lots and lots of third-world nation you can go to...and where you'll probably live a good and happy life if you've got a bit of money. But if you want to live in a modern first-world democracy, you MUST pay the price of admission: higher taxes.
    Since you made the original assertion, the burden of proof is on you.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  4. #24
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Since you made the original assertion, the burden of proof is on you.
    Would you care to show me any stable, developed nation in all human history that did not depend on tax revenue in order to function?

    If there's no tax revenue, then there's no government. Only those who have money will be able to afford an education for their children - but then, the level of education available even to the wealthy will vary wildly from location to location. There's no police, firefighters, judicial system, or social workers. There's no laws. Local customs - whether good or bad - become what passes for laws. If you think that's okay, remember the Salem witch trials...and such still go on today (if by different names) in places where is no effective governance.

    If all that sounds good to you, then go find someplace and declare it tax-free for everybody!

    Good luck with that....
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #25
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Would you care to show me any stable, developed nation in all human history that did not depend on tax revenue in order to function?

    If there's no tax revenue, then there's no government. Only those who have money will be able to afford an education for their children - but then, the level of education available even to the wealthy will vary wildly from location to location. There's no police, firefighters, judicial system, or social workers. There's no laws. Local customs - whether good or bad - become what passes for laws. If you think that's okay, remember the Salem witch trials...and such still go on today (if by different names) in places where is no effective governance.

    If all that sounds good to you, then go find someplace and declare it tax-free for everybody!

    Good luck with that....
    economic freedom-strawmanillustration-jpg
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  6. #26
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    {strawman picture}
    In other words, you couldn't do it. You could not come up with even a single example to disprove what I pointed out to you...

    ...and instead of having the intestinal fortitude to admit it, you post a picture. Winning the argument is more important to you than being accurate, than being right.

    You can go ahead and have the last word in this discussion. I won't reply.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #27
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    In other words, you couldn't do it. You could not come up with even a single example to disprove what I pointed out to you...

    ...and instead of having the intestinal fortitude to admit it, you post a picture. Winning the argument is more important to you than being accurate, than being right.

    You can go ahead and have the last word in this discussion. I won't reply.
    You know perfectly well that I never said there were developed nations that did not depend on tax revenue in order to function.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  8. #28
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    Re: economic freedom

    Well maybee you can question the classic belief that economic freedom is the same as low taxes, small goverment and little regulation.

    First look at social mobility. That it's in countries with higher taxes, more regulation and bigger goverment their people have the biggest possibilities to succed on their own merits.

    Howard Steven Friedman: The American Myth of Social Mobility

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us...anted=all&_r=0


    One intersting thing also is that then the conservative think tank do their list of economic freedom, countries with higher taxes, more goverment and more regulation is doing farily well. Having rougly the same or even more economic freedom then USA.

    Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

    Also the top ten list of the worlds most innovative and competive countries includes countries with higher taxes, more goverment and more regulation.

    The World

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanada...ive-countries/

  9. #29
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergslagstroll View Post
    Well maybee you can question the classic belief that economic freedom is the same as low taxes, small goverment and little regulation.

    First look at social mobility. That it's in countries with higher taxes, more regulation and bigger goverment their people have the biggest possibilities to succed on their own merits.

    Howard Steven Friedman: The American Myth of Social Mobility

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us...anted=all&_r=0


    One intersting thing also is that then the conservative think tank do their list of economic freedom, countries with higher taxes, more goverment and more regulation is doing farily well. Having rougly the same or even more economic freedom then USA.

    Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

    Also the top ten list of the worlds most innovative and competive countries includes countries with higher taxes, more goverment and more regulation.

    The World

    The World's Most Competitive Countries - Forbes
    The way I see it, economic freedom is when you have the freedom to go out and earn money, while other people believe that economic freedom is simply having money. It's kinda like the Declaration of Independence where it mentions the pursuit of happiness, rather than just happiness.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  10. #30
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    Re: economic freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    How do you define it?
    Economic and social rights entail the people entitling themselves to outcomes, even if this requires mandating others do the work and incur the cost to furnish them. These are sometimes called "positive rights."

    Political rights entail entitling oneself to protection by governmental systems from others seeking to threaten, steal, kill, enslave or otherwise harm oneself. These by contrast are often called "negative rights."

    Therefore the idea of "economic freedom" means "I get to have whatever I want and need without having to trade to acquire it."

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