View Poll Results: Should 'people punching' weapons be kept by civilians who want them?

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  • Yes

    19 67.86%
  • No

    6 21.43%
  • Not sure/it depends

    3 10.71%
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Thread: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

  1. #21
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So the government has more of a right to acquire goods than I do? How wonderful.
    Yes it does. It's called taxation.

    Any time you can figure out how to run a country without taxes, please let me know.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
    This group is the worst enemy of America and its freedoms. It includes, but is not limited to, all Trump supporters.

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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    No one can profess to have a definite understanding of the intentions of the authors of the 2A. It's meaning is still hotly contested and it's my understanding that the current interpretation didn't come about until relatively recently:

    2010: In two decisions clarifying their 2008 Heller ruling, the Supreme Court said that the Second Amendment limits the government’s ability to restrict the right to keep and bear arms—meaning that states and cities could not significantly limit this right. The Court didn’t say what sorts of gun control laws would be permissible.

    Isn't this correct?
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    And military grade weapons in the 18th century couldn't do much beyond individual self defense and hunting, so it was a moot point at the time.
    The whole notion that the government could fund for better military equipment doesn't have much constitutional basis either. Your point?

  4. #24
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Fair enough.

    Neither one of these was designed with the primary purpose of killing large numbers of people, however.

    Not my intention, but as far as I know, most if not all assault weapons would qualify. In addition, there'd be some firearms that technically aren't assault weapons but would still qualify.

    Point taken: I'll try to stay away from the term for the rest of the thread.


    To my knowledge, NO weapon is made with the express purpose of killing large numbers of people in a short time at close range.


    A LOT of weapons may be CAPABLE of such a feat. In the right hands, as I said, an 1880s Colt Frontier .45 could kill up to six people at close range in a couple seconds.

    A pump sporting shotgun, loaded with #00 buck, could put forty-five .30 lead balls in the air at potentially lethal velocity in about 2-3 seconds.


    A semi-auto deer rifle in 30-06 could typically kill three or four people at close range in a couple seconds, in moderately skilled (or lucky) hands... and they generally do not have a detachable magazine. 30-06 is a powerful and lethal round, which could penetrate and kill or wound several people with one round. It is a hunting rather than military round... the 5.56 used by the M16/AR15/M4 is weak tea by comparison.

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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    No one can profess to have a definite understanding of the intentions of the authors of the 2A. It's meaning is still hotly contested and it's my understanding that the current interpretation didn't come about until relatively recently:

    2010: In two decisions clarifying their 2008 Heller ruling, the Supreme Court said that the Second Amendment limits the government’s ability to restrict the right to keep and bear arms—meaning that states and cities could not significantly limit this right. The Court didn’t say what sorts of gun control laws would be permissible.

    Isn't this correct?


    The Founders themselves, the guys who wrote it, were pretty clear about its meaning, and that it applied to private arms and individuals.



    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
    Thomas Jefferson
    to James Madison


    The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #26
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The Founders themselves, the guys who wrote it, were pretty clear about its meaning, and that it applied to private arms and individuals.



    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
    Thomas Jefferson
    to James Madison


    The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment
    Yeah, I've seen this before G. I still don't buy it. I'm standing my ground on this one
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  7. #27
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    I can own a sword without ever actually using it the way it was intended to be used. The act of owning a lethal weapon doesnt ever implicate that it will be used to kill people.

    When one starts taking away objects that may be used to harm people you end up with a world with no corners because they might hurt someone. Take away scissors because someone might run with them.

    AH but one might say that at least scissors cant kill a lot of people easily. Well a vehicle certainly can. Ban those damn cars!

    3 Children Killed, 3 Injured In North Philadelphia Hit-Run; $110K Reward Offered CBS Philly


  8. #28
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Yeah, I've seen this before G. I still don't buy it. I'm standing my ground on this one

    Ignoring something you don't like doesn't make it go away, nor change what they said.


    It's in plain English. You can check the quotes and see if they are legit.


    And they're pretty clear. Let's focus on just one for now, to avoid overload and confusion...


    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"


    I'd like to see someone explain how this isn't an endorsement of the 2A as an individual right, without looking silly in the process.
    Last edited by Goshin; 07-26-14 at 06:32 PM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  9. #29
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    And military grade weapons in the 18th century couldn't do much beyond individual self defense and hunting, so it was a moot point at the time.


    Cannon.


    Private citizens could own cannon.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #30
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    re: 'People punching' guns[W:249]

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Point taken: I'll try to stay away from the term for the rest of the thread.
    You still need to specify exactly which weapons you're polling about.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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