View Poll Results: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

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  • Sovereignty of another nation should never be questioned

    5 55.56%
  • Sovereignty is something to be earned by deeds

    0 0%
  • Sovereignty is something to be earned by strength

    3 33.33%
  • Huh?

    1 11.11%
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Thread: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

  1. #1
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    Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Someone said, on this forum, “the resources of a country belongs ONLY to that country.” But is that REALLY true?

    On it’s face, it seems obvious, just, and fair. We are taught as schoolchildren not to steal and start fights, right?? Simple.

    But then I thought about it a little deeper, and came to a very different conclusion.

    To me, it comes down to two key questions. 1.) Can a human being really justifiably OWN land and 2.) Are governments like schoolchildren, in that they have rights and feelings etc that would preclude them from being picked on?


    My answer to the first question, regarding whether one can ever really OWN land and resources, is a firm “no.” The resason: What would entitle somebody to sole ownership of a resource we all need, say oil or water or food? The fact that they lucked out and were born and raised on the land containing it??

    If we answer “yes,” then we are saying that what morally entitles anyone to ownership of anything else is simply a birthright, handed down from generation to generation. A matter of luck and genes. But what value does heredity add to society that it should be the sole determinant of ownership?


    My answer to the second question, regarding whether governments have rights, is a firm “no.” Governments do not have feelings, they do not have thoughts, and subsequently, they do not have rights. A government is an inanimate construct, and its existence is justified only as long as it serves the governed.

    Therefore, a dictator, having no aligence to the people he governs, has no rights in my book. He is simply a bully to be disposed of.

    The only moral purpose for the existence of a government is to serve the needs of the governed. That’s all. The government in itself has no rights. Sadaam Hussein had no inherent right to the great wealth of Iraq, and disposing of him was not in any way immoral.



    So with all that in mind, if the people of the United States need Iraqi oil, why should we not take it? Since I can find no moral or ethical determinant for the ownership of anything, it becomes a more practical question of ownership going to the most fit.

    If you don’t agree, look back in history and provide one example of when people, nations, have lived side by side and not tried to take resources from one another. It’s a tale as old as human history, the sort of Darwinian natural selection of nations.

    The native americans, who themselves did not believe in the concept of land ownership, were overrun by European colonists who put the land to better use, and the world has benefitted as a result. This is simply the way of the world.

    I suggest that the United States would put the natural resources of Iraq to better use than the Iraqis.

    In my opinion, we should take their oil. What do you think?

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Someone said, on this forum, “the resources of a country belongs ONLY to that country.” But is that REALLY true?

    On it’s face, it seems obvious, just, and fair. We are taught as schoolchildren not to steal and start fights, right?? Simple.

    But then I thought about it a little deeper, and came to a very different conclusion.

    To me, it comes down to two key questions. 1.) Can a human being really justifiably OWN land and 2.) Are governments like schoolchildren, in that they have rights and feelings etc that would preclude them from being picked on?


    My answer to the first question, regarding whether one can ever really OWN land and resources, is a firm “no.” The resason: What would entitle somebody to sole ownership of a resource we all need, say oil or water or food? The fact that they lucked out and were born and raised on the land containing it??

    If we answer “yes,” then we are saying that what morally entitles anyone to ownership of anything else is simply a birthright, handed down from generation to generation. A matter of luck and genes. But what value does heredity add to society that it should be the sole determinant of ownership?


    My answer to the second question, regarding whether governments have rights, is a firm “no.” Governments do not have feelings, they do not have thoughts, and subsequently, they do not have rights. A government is an inanimate construct, and its existence is justified only as long as it serves the governed.

    Therefore, a dictator, having no aligence to the people he governs, has no rights in my book. He is simply a bully to be disposed of.

    The only moral purpose for the existence of a government is to serve the needs of the governed. That’s all. The government in itself has no rights. Sadaam Hussein had no inherent right to the great wealth of Iraq, and disposing of him was not in any way immoral.



    So with all that in mind, if the people of the United States need Iraqi oil, why should we not take it? Since I can find no moral or ethical determinant for the ownership of anything, it becomes a more practical question of ownership going to the most fit.

    If you don’t agree, look back in history and provide one example of when people, nations, have lived side by side and not tried to take resources from one another. It’s a tale as old as human history, the sort of Darwinian natural selection of nations.

    The native americans, who themselves did not believe in the concept of land ownership, were overrun by European colonists who put the land to better use, and the world has benefitted as a result. This is simply the way of the world.

    I suggest that the United States would put the natural resources of Iraq to better use than the Iraqis.

    In my opinion, we should take their oil. What do you think?
    Certainly humans can own land. It is rational for land to ghave individuals in authority over it.

    Certainly juridic persons can have rights, these being based on the rights of the constituents.

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Certainly humans can own land. It is rational for land to ghave individuals in authority over it.

    Certainly juridic persons can have rights, these being based on the rights of the constituents.
    I give you credit for at least attempting to answer the question. "Like" for you.

    Shows some balls. Your answer sucks, but at least you have some balls to try.

    Most people on debatepolitics clearly aren't here to think and use their brains. Most people are here to pick fights and push their stupid agendas that nobody outside CNN cares about.... be they gays with their "let me be gay" agenda, conservatives with their "Jesus and 1950's 'Merica'" agenda, students with their "give me your money" agenda, what have you.

    America is full of stupid idiots with agendas, but not to big on thinkers, it seems.

    Ask a question that actually requires people to think and use gray matter, and you get crickets around here. Very telling.

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Relative morals are best morals!

    According to some faggy European, everyone has a right to life, liberty and property. But the OP poses that you have no right to something you have not the strength to hold.

    And yeah, he's right. Americans have what they have because their forefathers took America by strength of arms. Libyans have what they have because the Italians couldn't hold it.
    It's hypocritical to say someone has no right to take what they can, when you're reaping the benefits of someone doing just that in the past.
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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    If people didn't have the Right to own property then there would be no such thing as "stealing" or "theft". If you truly think that people don't have a right to property then let me come over and squat on your land, eat your food, use your toothbrush etc etc. All without paying for it or asking for your permission.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Unfortunately, in a world of conquests and might as right, sovereignty more and more of late has to be retained thru conviction and strength.

    There was a time, before 9/11, when the US and most the civilized world recognized a nation's inherent right to sovereignty, but not anymore. Americans are back to taking it from whom we can, when it suits our purpose.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    The distinctions between tradition, coercion and legal-rationalism.

    Is there a high school student in the house? We're struggling, here.

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Oh look, someone using social darwinism to justify invading other countries in order to take their resources and give them to "superior" peoples. I wonder where we heard that one before.

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    People have the right to do whatever the society in which they live decides they have a right to do. Rights come from people, they are neither inherent, nor are they earned. If society decides you do not have a right, nothing you can do will earn that right.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Are sovereignty and ownership earned or inherent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I give you credit for at least attempting to answer the question. "Like" for you.

    Shows some balls. Your answer sucks, but at least you have some balls to try.

    Most people on debatepolitics clearly aren't here to think and use their brains. Most people are here to pick fights and push their stupid agendas that nobody outside CNN cares about.... be they gays with their "let me be gay" agenda, conservatives with their "Jesus and 1950's 'Merica'" agenda, students with their "give me your money" agenda, what have you.

    America is full of stupid idiots with agendas, but not to big on thinkers, it seems.

    Ask a question that actually requires people to think and use gray matter, and you get crickets around here. Very telling.
    Why does it suck?

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