View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sams?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Agree

    30 81.08%
  • disagree

    7 18.92%
Page 22 of 29 FirstFirst ... 122021222324 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 285

Thread: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sams?

  1. #211
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The Big 12 ain't the SEC, but that didn't stop the people who give the awards out to select Jeffcoat from the Big 12 over Sam in the SEC as the best Defensive End in the country.
    the people who give awards don't do the drafting, though.

    I'm not saying he absolutely would've gone undrafted. But I think it's no less reasonable than saying he'd have gone in the 5th. It all depends on team fit and draft fit....a team that values intangibles over measurable and having the luxury of taking a flier and being there with Sam at the top of their board. But given his poor measurables, tweener status, lack of a track record, and a potential question in terms of the consistency in his senior season...I think it's absolutely reasonable to suggest it would've been just as likely he would've gone undrafted.

    Which basically goes back to what you said and I agree....he was basically a 5th to 7th round guy....and a metric **** ton of guys with a 5th-7th round grade end up undrafted by the end of things because there's only so many spots and so many fits.
    You just do not see the SEC DPOTY going undrafted. It does not happen. The lowest an SEC DPOTY has been drafted in the last decade was the 5th round. Conference plays a BIG role in NFL scouts determination of talent. being the DPOTY in a great conference is greater than being the DPOTY in a horse**** conference that only saw 17 players drafted in total. Compare that to 49 players taken from the SEC (making them the top conference sending players to the NFL this year).

    More defensive players were drafted from the SEC than ALL of the players drafted from the Big 12 (19 to 17). 7 Defensive ends were drafted from the SEC.

    Think of it this way, there were two big 12 players drafted in the first round, compared to 11 for the SEC.

    Like it or not, who one plays against while putting up their numbers plays a big, big role in talent evaluation. Jeffcoate is simply not comparable to Sam as far as things go. It's easier to put up those numbers in a bad conference than it is to do it in the best conference.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  2. #212
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Also, in line with this....**** Chris "Warcraft" Kluwe with his incessant whiny. Not about someone on the vikings being a bigot...if he wants to whine about that whine about it. But **** his whining that he lost his job because of his gay rights activism when his fellow kicker, Ryan Longwell, had pretty much the EXACT same situation play out the year before and Ryan never said a peep in public either way about gay rights. Kluwe would've been canned regardless of his distractions imho....but he was an old, declining, expensive PUNTER who was causing significant distractions from all sorts of things (even beyond gay rights...remember the "ray guy" hoopla?). Marginal is a great word.
    I'm reminded of Peyton Manning's liquored up kicker line.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  3. #213
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    04-23-17 @ 05:59 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    15,429
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    he's too small for putting his hand on the ground, too slow to be dropping into coverage.
    Sounds like he would have made a great Chicago Bear.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

  4. #214
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    the people who give awards don't do the drafting, though.
    True there.

    You just do not see the SEC DPOTY going undrafted. It does not happen.
    I has not happened. That doesn't mean it can't happen. Also, just throwing out SEC DPOTY without context as to WHO those guys are kind of obfuscates the situation a bit. Prior to Sam you had Jarvis Jones, Morris Claiborne, Patrick Peterson, Rolando McClain, Eric Berry, Glenn Dorsey, Patrick Willis, and DeMeco Ryans. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that Sam's college career, talent, and measurable aren't anywhere near the same level as those guys.

    Now I agree with you in terms of conference playing a bit factor for evaluators, and I think there's definitely a great argument to be made that Sam would get drafted (notice I've said he would). I don't think we have disagreement on the notion that regardless of the gay thing, or specifically without the gay thing, that he would've been drafted.

    Where I think we split is in terms of the 5th round claim you've stated and the undrafted I stated. Let me explain a bit WHY I say I see being undrafted was as likely as going in the 5th in my mind. Given his combine numbers, his senior bowl, his twiner size, only one high end season of note where the stats came in bunches, I view him being drafted in the 5th round to be VERY unlikely but possible. Similarly, I view him going undrafted being very unlikely but possible.

    Where the disconnect is probably coming with how is that you seem to think there's a reasonable chance he would've gone in the 5th if not for the gay thing, and thus me saying it's "just as likely" he'd go undrafted to you would mean that would need to have a reasonable chance as well.

    I don't see him going in the 5th as being likely, and thus I see suggesting he's just as likely to have gone undrafted as in the 5th to be reasonable because I see both as unlikely. Without the gay thing, with everything else being the same, I think he's a 6th or 7th rounder with a slightly chance to go a round earlier or be a priority UDFA. In part BECAUSE I do put value in him being in the SEC and would think he'd go before Jeffcoat, even though I think it's entirely reasonable to use them as COMPARABLE relative to their generalized evaluative status.

  5. #215
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Sounds like he would have made a great Chicago Bear.
    Dick.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #216
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    True there.



    I has not happened. That doesn't mean it can't happen. Also, just throwing out SEC DPOTY without context as to WHO those guys are kind of obfuscates the situation a bit. Prior to Sam you had Jarvis Jones, Morris Claiborne, Patrick Peterson, Rolando McClain, Eric Berry, Glenn Dorsey, Patrick Willis, and DeMeco Ryans. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that Sam's college career, talent, and measurable aren't anywhere near the same level as those guys.

    Now I agree with you in terms of conference playing a bit factor for evaluators, and I think there's definitely a great argument to be made that Sam would get drafted (notice I've said he would). I don't think we have disagreement on the notion that regardless of the gay thing, or specifically without the gay thing, that he would've been drafted.

    Where I think we split is in terms of the 5th round claim you've stated and the undrafted I stated. Let me explain a bit WHY I say I see being undrafted was as likely as going in the 5th in my mind. Given his combine numbers, his senior bowl, his twiner size, only one high end season of note where the stats came in bunches, I view him being drafted in the 5th round to be VERY unlikely but possible. Similarly, I view him going undrafted being very unlikely but possible.

    Where the disconnect is probably coming with how is that you seem to think there's a reasonable chance he would've gone in the 5th if not for the gay thing, and thus me saying it's "just as likely" he'd go undrafted to you would mean that would need to have a reasonable chance as well.

    I don't see him going in the 5th as being likely, and thus I see suggesting he's just as likely to have gone undrafted as in the 5th to be reasonable because I see both as unlikely. Without the gay thing, with everything else being the same, I think he's a 6th or 7th rounder with a slightly chance to go a round earlier or be a priority UDFA. In part BECAUSE I do put value in him being in the SEC and would think he'd go before Jeffcoat, even though I think it's entirely reasonable to use them as COMPARABLE relative to their generalized evaluative status.
    The problem is the "just as likely". No SEC DPOTY besides him lasted past the 5th, thus I am making the claim that he was likely to go in the fifth due to two reasons:

    1. He was the SEC DPOTY and they have not fallen further than the fifth in the last decade.
    2. He wouldn't have undergone the additional scrutiny that he received as part of the media hoopla regarding him being drafted.

    The likelihood of him being the first SEC DPOTY to go undrafted in the past 11 years, however, seems VERY unlikely. Especially when you think about the fact that he wouldn't have undergone any additional scrutiy had he not come out. It seems preposterous to say "No SEC DPOTY has fallen lower than the fifth over the last decade, but this guy.... he's likely to slip out of the draft entirely."

    The bears drafted a guy in the 4th based entirely on college production. His combine was atrocious for his position, but his production made him worth a pick that high. (Michael Sam actually ran faster than Ka'Deem Carey at the combine and Carey's a much smaller running back).

    To say that the two things were equally likely is practically absurd.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  7. #217
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem is the "just as likely". No SEC DPOTY besides him lasted past the 5th, thus I am making the claim that he was likely to go in the fifth due to two reasons:
    I'd argue he's the worst prospect of all the DPOTY from the SEC in the past decade+, so it's reasonable to suggest that he'd go lower than them.

    2. He wouldn't have undergone the additional scrutiny that he received as part of the media hoopla regarding him being drafted.
    He'd still be:

    1. Poorly sized for DE or 3-4 OLB
    2. Saddled with a HORRIBLE combine (of 28 DE's he finished 22nd, last, last, 19th, and second to last in the combine events).
    3. Lacklust Senior Bowl
    4. One good year
    5. Sporadic production; he failed to register a sack in 8 of his 14 games. Less than 4 tackles in 8 of 14 games. Tackle for Loss was the only consistent stat he had, recording one in 9 of his 14 games.

    None of that I point out above is "unusual scrutiny". That's standard scrutiny that any team would do on a draft pick. That's BASIC stuff.

    I'd say the likelihood of him going in the 5th round is about as good as him going undrafted...unlikely but possible. Your only argument is primarily pointing at past SEC DPOTY, but a STRONG case can be made that he's far inferior of a prospect than any of those that came before him so there's no reason to assume he'd be a 5th rounder simply because others before him had been drafted high.

    While I don't think it's preposterous, I do think it's unlikely he'd slip out of the draft all together. However, I think him being drafted in the 5th would've been relatively as unlikely. Even if we go by your logic, which seems to be solely focused on past SEC DPOTY's draft status, Sam is arguably a worse prospect than those that came before him so it'd make sense that he wouldn't go as high as they did...thus not prior to the 6th.

    The bears drafted a guy in the 4th based entirely on college production. His combine was atrocious for his position, but his production made him worth a pick that high. (Michael Sam actually ran faster than Ka'Deem Carey at the combine and Carey's a much smaller running back).
    You're seriously going to try to compare the two?

    Carey did have a bad 40 time compared to his peers, being similar to Sam in how low he was within his group. However, as you continue to go across the line of combine measurements he is different than Sam. He's middle of the pack in the bench and 3 cone, and was in the bottom third (but clearly not at the bottom) of the rest. That's distinctly different than Sam, who was continually last or second to last in multiple measurements.

    Second, that whole "inconsistent" and "lack of track record" thing I keep pointing out with Sam isn't there for Ka'Deem Carey.

    First track record. Carey had two years as a feature back and eclipsed 1850 yards and 19 TD's BOTH years, showing a track record of success. He averaged over 4.5 yards a carry every year in college. He also showed himself a capable pass catcher out of the backfield, catching 25+ passes each starting year and averaging at least over 6.7 yards per reception. Which as you know is a big scheme fit for a backup to Matt Forte. He led the nation two years ago and was 3rd last year in terms of yardage and in the top 10 for total touch downs both years. Unlike Sam this was a guy who had a track record, as opposed to one year, of being a stand out player.

    Second, consistency. Both in a general sense and in terms of giving you BIG performances on top of it. Carey eclipsed 100 yards in every game in 2013 (actually, he had 119 or more in every game). He scored Touchdowns in 10 of his 12 games. He recorded a reception in 8 of his 12. In 2012 he eclipsed 100 yards in 10 of his 13 games, recorded a TD in EVERY game, and a reception in every game. In 2013 6 of his 12 games had over 150 yards (with one at 149) and he had 6 multi-TD games. In 2012 he had 5 games over 150 yards of rushing (with one at 147) and 5 multi-TD games.

    To say that the two things were equally likely is practically absurd.
    To compare Sam to Ka'Deem Carey is practically absurd. If Sam had a "Great" college career as you suggested then Ka'Deem had an all word college career. Ka'Deem was better across the board in his combine performance, is relatively prototypical in size for his position, has multiple years of excellence in college, and has been extremely consistent in his production throughout both his starting years.

    Finally...

    No SEC DPOTY has fallen lower than the fifth over the last decade, but this guy.... he's likely to slip out of the draft entirely."
    I'm not saying he's LIKELY to slip out of the draft entirely. On the contrary, I've said repeatedly I DON'T think it'd be unlikely. I'm suggesting that it would be unlikely, and him being drafted in the 5th would ALSO be unlikely. I'm suggesting both are POSSIBLE, and roughly equally possible in occurring. As I've said, I think the reasonable answer without him coming out would've been 6th or 7th round, with a slight chance of going late in the 5th if a team fell in love or a priority UDFA signed after the draft if things just didn't fit right at the tail end of the draft.

    I just don't see it nearly as unplausible as you to suggest that it's no less possible that he'd go undrafted than he'd go in the 5th without the gay thing coming out. There ONLY argument you seem to have for him going in the 5th is a fallacious call to history that basically ignores the context of where Sam fits within that history.

  8. #218
    Matthew 16:3

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere and nowhere
    Last Seen
    06-24-17 @ 05:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    45,603

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm not saying he's LIKELY to slip out of the draft entirely. On the contrary, I've said repeatedly I DON'T think it'd be unlikely. I'm suggesting that it would be unlikely, and him being drafted in the 5th would ALSO be unlikely. I'm suggesting both are POSSIBLE, and roughly equally possible in occurring. As I've said, I think the reasonable answer without him coming out would've been 6th or 7th round, with a slight chance of going late in the 5th if a team fell in love or a priority UDFA signed after the draft if things just didn't fit right at the tail end of the draft.
    We don't disagree enough for this to be a real debate. Sorry, I tried.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  9. #219
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    We don't disagree enough for this to be a real debate. Sorry, I tried.
    Excellent job at it I might add. We'd make a poor Skip and Stephen A

    Is it sad that was the best actual michael Sam debate I've had thus far?

  10. #220
    The Dude
    Kobie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Western NY
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    42,890

    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Excellent job at it I might add. We'd make a poor Skip and Stephen A

    Is it sad that was the best actual michael Sam debate I've had thus far?
    Please don't demean yourselves in such a fashion.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

Page 22 of 29 FirstFirst ... 122021222324 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •