View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sams?

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Thread: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sams?

  1. #201
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Really, SEC defensive player of the year? He was projected 3rd-4th round before coming out. Granted, the draft is largely a crapshot from start to finish (Lions had a couple #3 picks go bust i recall), but you'll have a real hard time convincing me that not a single team would take him or that there's any risk compared to taking a Manti Te'o closet case who invents girlfriends and kills them off just to escape the pressure. It's harder on Sam than any of his teammates, so they can cry me a river.
    Which, of course, isn't what happened. Te'o didn't invent the girlfriend, he was catfished.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Here are some predictions about what will happen when Michael Sam is either cut or makes the team:

    If he's cut: Some people will criticize Jeff Fisher because, even though he went out and drafted the first openly gay player into the NFL, they will claim he cut Sam becasue he was gay.

    If he makes the team: Some people will claim that he only made the team because he was gay and that Jeff Fisher was too frightened of scenario one occurring to cut him,

    .
    That's how some peopel on both sides will react. The truth of the matter, however, is:

    If Sam gets cut: It'll be because Jeff Fisher and his staff did not feel that Sam was one of the 53 best players on the squad.

    If Sam makes the team: It'll be because Fisher et al though he was one of the 53 best players.

    That's the truth of it. There will always be people who aren't capable of recognizing the above, but that won't change the fact that the above will be the case.

    AS far as Dungy's comments go, he's not saying anything different from what I said when I said Sam was drafted later than he would have been had he not come out before the draft. Lots of coaches in the NFL are Distraction averse. Sam was basically a mid-level prospect coming out of college (5th-7th round prospect). His combine stats were not very good, but he had great college production and he's got loads of heart and intangibles. Because of the heart and intangibles, I think he would have gone somewhere in the 5th round had he not come out before the draft.

    In this kind of scenario, however, some NFL coaches tend to get skittish. You're basically looking at first-rounder distraction-potential for a guy who is probably just role player/specialist that doesn't fit any one mold well (he's too small for putting his hand on the ground, too slow to be dropping into coverage). Lots of coaches will look at him and say "Meh, he seems like a good kid and I hope he does well, but I don't want to deal with all that media bull**** for a guy who's not really likely to be a big impact player".

    Say what you will about Mike Vick, the guy can be a dynamic player who can change a game. Coaches are more likely to put up with a distraction when it is coupled with a major potential for an upside like that. Unfortunately, Sam simply doesn't have that kind of potential.

    I think Sam will end up having a decent little career because he is a good player who can help the right team. He's the kind of player that has a 4-7 year career as a role player/special teams contributor. He's got the heart and drive to outperform his raw physical talents (as he did in college). Generally speaking, though, a lot of coaches don't want a lot of media attention focused on a role-player/special teamer.
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  3. #203
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Agree how?

    That "things will happen"? I'd agree regardless of how he meant it. If he means teammates, I would be shocked if there's not some kind of hazing to some degree or some random guy out of the 90+ during the preseason that has an issue with the gay thing. If he means media attention, I absolutely think there will be some pitchforks out if Sam doesn't make the team and there will be a lot of additional media attention and scrutiny for a 7th round, back bencher pick.

    That I wouldn't take him because of that? Would largely depend on my team. If I'm someone on top right now with a sound stable team, like the Niners or the Patriots, I'd take him at the end of the draft or as a UDFA and give him a shot and trust we can handle whatever comes with it. If I'm someone on the bottom right now I may also give it a shot, because why the hell not? There's probably enough other things going on that the extra attention on something viewed as positive may be a good thing. If I'm kind of a middle of the road team that's in the midst of a rebuilt process...then I'd probably not take him as I don't particularly feel like he's that good of a prospect.

  4. #204
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    His combine stats were not very good, but he had great college production and he's got loads of heart and intangibles. Because of the heart and intangibles, I think he would have gone somewhere in the 5th round had he not come out before the draft.
    Agree with pretty much everything you said completely, except here...and I actually spotted you on the forum AND talking football so I had to jump in.

    I question that his college production was "Great". Sam had one arguably "great" year out of the 4 he was in school. The rest were rather pedestrian. The numbers that year were good, arguably great, however the inconsistency of them throughout the season would cause me to hesitate saying its as "Great" (It's kind of the same principle as why I don't like saying Orakpo is great pass rusher, because he's inconsistent and generally gets his totals by having a few Big games and vanishes in others). Considering you had another guy who was his conferences defensive POTY AND was the NATIONAL POTY at the position same position AND put up better stats than Sam that went undrafted...I think it's as likely that Sam would've gone undrafted as it is that he'd go in the 5th if he hadn't came out.

    But beyond quibbling regarding his college career, I agree 100% with the rest of what you said which is annoying because you've shown up and I want to argue!

  5. #205
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Agree with pretty much everything you said completely, except here...and I actually spotted you on the forum AND talking football so I had to jump in.

    I question that his college production was "Great". Sam had one arguably "great" year out of the 4 he was in school. The rest were rather pedestrian. The numbers that year were good, arguably great, however the inconsistency of them throughout the season would cause me to hesitate saying its as "Great" (It's kind of the same principle as why I don't like saying Orakpo is great pass rusher, because he's inconsistent and generally gets his totals by having a few Big games and vanishes in others). Considering you had another guy who was his conferences defensive POTY AND was the NATIONAL POTY at the position same position AND put up better stats than Sam that went undrafted...I think it's as likely that Sam would've gone undrafted as it is that he'd go in the 5th if he hadn't came out.

    But beyond quibbling regarding his college career, I agree 100% with the rest of what you said which is annoying because you've shown up and I want to argue!
    I disagree that he would could have gone undrafted if he hadn't come out. The Big 12 ain't the SEC.

    Edited to correct terminology
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-26-14 at 08:32 PM.
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  6. #206
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by shavingcollywob View Post
    And quote frankly HE PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DRAFTED. He's just not an NFL caliber player.
    No offense, but a number of talent evaluators both in the media and in NFL front officers whose expertise I weigh FAR more than yours disagree with you. Also, facts disagree with you...he is and NFL player and therefore is inherently, factually, NFL caliber.

    Whether he sticks or not is a question, but acting like its some unquestionable factual truth that he "shouldn't have been drafted" is ridiculous. He was rated as a draft able prospect, even before coming out, by pretty much every reputable college evaluating group. Multiple front offices suggested they would've been interested in potentially bringing him in as a UDFA if he wasn't drafted and at least one front office felt he warranted a draft pick. There's been FAR more questionable picks over the years than Michael Sam in the 7th, so suggesting he just "shouldn't" have been drafted is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Really, SEC defensive player of the year?
    Yes, other potential talent could've been found that could've arguably been as good or better than the SEC CO-DPOTY. For example, the Big 12 DPOTY who also was the Nation's Defensive End of the year (meaning he won the award OVER Sam who also was a DE and went undrafted. Additionally, when you get late in the draft and to UDFA often it's about finding a scheme fit or someone you feel has the measurable and you can develop rather than simple college production...each front office weighs things differently.

    Second, your continual pointing to a college award as some kind of legitimizing notion is not a good argument if you're debating anyone with some understanding of football. Tell that to Tim Tebow, a Heisman trophy winning former "QB Of the Year" that also holds two Maxwell awards. DPOTY for a conference has never been a guarantee high draft pick. Mark Herzlick went undrafted after a DPOTY season in 2008. Greg Jones went in the 6th in 2009. AJ Klein was a 5th rounder in 2011. Pointing at the award as some kind of end all be all is just not a good tactic, DOUBLY so when a more decorated guy at the same position the same year didn't get drafted at all.

    He was projected 3rd-4th round before coming out.
    Please highlight a publicly that had him rated 3rd-4th round. The best I ever saw him was 3rd - 5th, and that was amazingly early in the process when grades are rather questionable outside the top guys...especially when you haven't had the combine, work outs, etc.

    You bring up Manti Te'o, which is then laughable given your pointing to Sam's status as Co-DOPTY this year. Manti was a finalist for the best player IN ALL OF FOOTBALL at ANY POSITION the year he was coming out. At a time he was thought of as a potential top 10 pick. Then you had a bad National Championship game, a combine that wasn't anything to write home about, and the whole distraction of the catfish thing and next thing you know he's going in the mid 2nd.

    Everything is about balance. The potential issues with Te'o were realistically weighed against the potential benefits he provides on the field, and it warranted him still being taken rather high in the draft. It's reasonable to suggest a 5th round talent like Sam doesn't have as much incentive for a team to overlook possible distractions as opposed to a potential 1st round talent guy like Te'o.

  7. #207
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Please highlight a publicly that had him rated 3rd-4th round. The best I ever saw him was 3rd - 5th, and that was amazingly early in the process when grades are rather questionable outside the top guys...especially when you haven't had the combine, work outs, etc.
    His combine and senior bowl did more to lower his stock than his being gay did, but once his stock was lowered, he became too marginal for most coaches to want to deal with the "distraction".
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I disagree that he would have gone undrafted. The Big 12 ain't the SEC.
    The Big 12 ain't the SEC, but that didn't stop the people who give the awards out to select Jeffcoat from the Big 12 over Sam in the SEC as the best Defensive End in the country.

    I'm not saying he absolutely would've gone undrafted. But I think it's no less reasonable than saying he'd have gone in the 5th. It all depends on team fit and draft fit....a team that values intangibles over measurable and having the luxury of taking a flier and being there with Sam at the top of their board. But given his poor measurables, tweener status, lack of a track record, and a potential question in terms of the consistency in his senior season...I think it's absolutely reasonable to suggest it would've been just as likely he would've gone undrafted.

    Which basically goes back to what you said and I agree....he was basically a 5th to 7th round guy....and a metric **** ton of guys with a 5th-7th round grade end up undrafted by the end of things because there's only so many spots and so many fits.

  9. #209
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    His combine and senior bowl did more to lower his stock than his being gay did, but once his stock was lowered, he became too marginal for most coaches to want to deal with the "distraction".
    Agree 100%

    If he had shown up to the Combine and his size was a bit better and his measurables were in the top half for his position rather than pretty close to last across the board, and if he stood out well a few times during the senior bowl week, then I think there's a great chance he would've gone in the 5th or perhaps even 4th REGARDLESS of the gay thing. In such a case, a team could reasonable see a number of FOOTBALL reasons to take the kid that would significantly outweigh the potential distraction for a mid round, as opposed to late round, pick.

    And if he had not came out gay, but had the same combine and measurables and senior bowl, I would say that most likely he'd have still rounded up in the late 6th/early 7th round with a chance to maybe have landed in the early 5th or maybe landed as an UDFA.

  10. #210
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    Re: Do you agree or disagree with Tony Dungys's comments about gay player Michael Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    His combine and senior bowl did more to lower his stock than his being gay did, but once his stock was lowered, he became too marginal for most coaches to want to deal with the "distraction".
    Also, in line with this....**** Chris "Warcraft" Kluwe with his incessant whiny. Not about someone on the vikings being a bigot...if he wants to whine about that whine about it. But **** his whining that he lost his job because of his gay rights activism when his fellow kicker, Ryan Longwell, had pretty much the EXACT same situation play out the year before and Ryan never said a peep in public either way about gay rights. Kluwe would've been canned regardless of his distractions imho....but he was an old, declining, expensive PUNTER who was causing significant distractions from all sorts of things (even beyond gay rights...remember the "ray guy" hoopla?). Marginal is a great word.

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