Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 42

Thread: Is American "idealism" healthy?

  1. #31
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,234

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    I don't think there is a corruption, but there is a massive over indulgence in the constitution. It has come to the point where there are arguments over placements of commas to try to figure out the authors original intent. That's ridiculous. Surely we are more equipped to make decisions about our current laws and judicial procedures than people from the 18th century.



    Exactly the problem. The constitution was drafted in a completely different era to what we live in now. As visionary as some of the founding fathers were, society is changing exponentially. In 1990 it would be impossible to predict what the 21st century looks like, never mind 1790. I am not saying that the constitution is irrelevant, many parts of it will be just as applicable in another 300 years time, but deference to an outdated document in matters of importance is lazy in comparison with actually reasoning out what is for the best in the now.

    The constitution shouldn't be a reason in and of itself to do something. The principles on which the constitution stand on, and the ideals for which it stand for, should be examined and reexamined to ensure that it is just for society as it is now, not as it was 300 years ago.
    Time and date are irrelevant.

    The Constitution is a document filled with words with meanings that have never changed. Words dont change.

    The only thing thats changed is how those words are defined or better yet corrupted.

    Those words have been twisted by the whims of the selfish, misguided or politically motivated but they've never changed their meaning.

    Its a document of laws. Laws are not subject to change based on personal and subjective definitions.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  2. #32
    stb
    Nilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Beantown
    Last Seen
    12-07-17 @ 09:17 PM
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    6,217

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Time and date are irrelevant.

    The Constitution is a document filled with words with meanings that have never changed. Words dont change.

    The only thing thats changed is how those words are defined or better yet corrupted.

    Those words have been twisted by the whims of the selfish, misguided or politically motivated but they've never changed their meaning.

    Its a document of laws. Laws are not subject to change based on personal and subjective definitions.
    All laws can and should be subject to change. As society evolves, so should our laws. See: slavery.
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK

  3. #33
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,234

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    So the words of the constitution are more important than the needs and desires of the people it rules? That, my friend, is fetishization at its finest.

    The constitution exists to serve the public interest, not the other way around.


    Now.... here's an etymology lesson for you: Words DO indeed change meanings all the time.

    Now.... here's an American History lesson for you: The constitution was drafted about 5 years after the revolutionary war because the new nation had no legal identity of its own upon which to base a legal system. They needed an identity separate from British Common Law since they had just won a war of independence against the crown.

    Now... here's a civics/mathematics lesson for you: The amendment process is much more difficult today than it was in 1788 because back then, there were only 13 states and today there are 50.

    Lol !!

    The " needs and desires of people " as defined by YOU should now be the standard we use for ammending our founding documents ?

    What a relentlessly innane and foolish concept. Let me tell you, you have some serious fettish issues too buddy.

    After your so called changes whats stopping the next guy from making more changes that would cancel out your own ? Whats stopping the guy after that from making more changes ?

    Or is it to remain untouched after your alterations ?

    Because its not a Constitution anymore, its not a document of laws and principles and standards that we used to build a Nation upon.

    Its a worthless bit of paper thats been marked up with the good intentions of extremely short sighted individuals. It would turn into graffiti because easilly manipulated individuals failed to fully understand what the Constitution represents.

    It was written by men with wisdom that out strips your own on a exponential scale. And they wrote it with the intentions of people like you in mind.

    They knew that there would be unstable ideologues motivated by personal inadequecies or guilt or the idea that their ideas some how superceded the rights of the Citizens as a whole so they included a process to change it that was purposefully difficult.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  4. #34
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,234

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    " Wants and needs of the people "...... friken unbelievable. No, in America your'e not responsible for providing for your own wants and needs anymore.

    No, some clown will desecrate a Historic document with his own projected inadequecies and " Poof ", theres your '' wants and needs " as asigned by the Government.

    Ive always said bad economies bring out the crazies ( think Germany 1929 ) and this is no exception.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  5. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The anals of history
    Last Seen
    07-25-15 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,348

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Lol !!

    The " needs and desires of people " as defined by YOU should now be the standard we use for ammending our founding documents ?

    What a relentlessly innane and foolish concept. Let me tell you, you have some serious fettish issues too buddy.

    After your so called changes whats stopping the next guy from making more changes that would cancel out your own ? Whats stopping the guy after that from making more changes ?

    Or is it to remain untouched after your alterations ?

    Because its not a Constitution anymore, its not a document of laws and principles and standards that we used to build a Nation upon.

    Its a worthless bit of paper thats been marked up with the good intentions of extremely short sighted individuals. It would turn into graffiti because easilly manipulated individuals failed to fully understand what the Constitution represents.

    It was written by men with wisdom that out strips your own on a exponential scale. And they wrote it with the intentions of people like you in mind.

    They knew that there would be unstable ideologues motivated by personal inadequecies or guilt or the idea that their ideas some how superceded the rights of the Citizens as a whole so they included a process to change it that was purposefully difficult.
    The needs and desires of the people as defined fluidly by the people, as in what occurs in an actual democracy.

    If I can't appeal to you with reason and intellect, maybe I can speak to you in your own language of ideology.... isn't DEMOCRACY a good and American thing?

  6. #36
    Electrician
    Bob Blaylock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    North 38°28′ West 121°26′
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    13,745

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The needs and desires of the people as defined fluidly by the people, as in what occurs in an actual democracy.

    If I can't appeal to you with reason and intellect, maybe I can speak to you in your own language of ideology.... isn't DEMOCRACY a good and American thing?
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

    America is not a Democracy, and has never been intended to be one. That you imagine it is or should be is unsurprising, given your demonstrated ignorance and contempt for this nation's Constitution, for the great men who founded this nation, and for the principles upon which this nation was founded.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  7. #37
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I am heading to Europe in two weeks, and was just thinking about how America and Britain differ.

    America, it strikes me, is much more old fashioned than Britain. Britain is a very Republican place.

    They believe in the sovereignty of one’s own self and one’s own opinion, and believe that one man is as good as the next… that all men are equal. It’s a very British way of looking at things.

    America, conversely, has a class system. We believe in the primacy of money and of hierarchies and…. most interestingly….. we actually believe in BELIEVING IN THINGS.



    And here is the main point of my post, and probably the biggest difference between cultures…



    Unlike Americans, Brits are a very skeptical people. If you wanted to define the English character in a more intellectual way, I would say that they are “empirical.”

    Britain’s greatest gift to Europe and to the intellectual thrust of the last 500 years has been empiricism. It’s how Newton beat Pascal... how he was right. The French are rationalists, Brits are not, and in fact they distrust rationalism and superstition as being two wings of the same heresy.

    That’s also why Britain has an established church in which no-one believes… because their empirical nature leads them to test things.

    In America, we have almost a religious idea about liberty. One could say that we fetishize the ideal of liberty.

    In fact, we have this tendency with other things as well. We fetishize the right to bear arms without really testing it.

    The Brits have a more “let’s test it. Does that work?” Attitude. In America, on the other hand, everything rises and falls by the constitution and the ideals it imparts.

    It follows then that in America, freedom of speech becomes more important than justice because freedom of speech is fetishized in the constitution. To a Brit, that idea is preposterous. To a Brit, being just to people is the first end of a state, in other words, the most important function of a state is to be a just state. Not for it to be a free state, but freedom is a good means of achieving a just state.

    In other words, freedom of speech is a concept, and justice is concrete.

    So my question to you…. do you think the idealistic nature of Americans is as the empiricism of our counterparts across the pond, or is our sense of idealism simply the sign of a young, perhaps naive state that hasn’t quite figured it all out yet?

    Personally, I believe the Brits have it right. Would like to hear your thoughts.
    Umm - the doesn't sound like any of my British friends.

    LOL.
    Seriously.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The anals of history
    Last Seen
    07-25-15 @ 02:05 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    10,348

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

    America is not a Democracy, and has never been intended to be one. That you imagine it is or should be is unsurprising, given your demonstrated ignorance and contempt for this nation's Constitution, for the great men who founded this nation, and for the principles upon which this nation was founded.
    I never said that America was a democracy. Like Fenton, you are using straw men to make yourself feel like you're winning this debate.

    What I actually said, if you'll go back and take note, is that DEMOCRACY is a good and American thing. Democracy, of course, being defined as rule by the will of the people as opposed to some king or something.

    I also have no contempt for the constitution. I think it's a fine historical document. I think there are certain parts of it which work, and certain parts of it which don't. I have no opinion on the founding fathers either way as they're all dead.

    I'm much more concerned with the living than the dead.

    I do, however, have contempt for people who view a legal document written over 200 years ago as something nearly biblical. I suppose some people are weak and they need a higher authority to tell them what to do, as they have no interest in assessing and making decisions about the world around them for themselves.

    I'm not like that. I don't care about George Washington, because George Washington is dead. I care about my neighbors getting fresh drinking water and a decent education. The only higher authority I appeal to is God almighty and His word.

    The rest is but the fallible works of man, and every man is as good as the next one.

  9. #39
    Sage
    Higgins86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    England
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    13,249

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

    America is not a Democracy, and has never been intended to be one. That you imagine it is or should be is unsurprising, given your demonstrated ignorance and contempt for this nation's Constitution, for the great men who founded this nation, and for the principles upon which this nation was founded.
    The fact your idolising men that lived hundred of years ago surely reinforces the point Grimm was trying to make...
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  10. #40
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,234

    Re: Is American "idealism" healthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The needs and desires of the people as defined fluidly by the people, as in what occurs in an actual democracy.

    If I can't appeal to you with reason and intellect, maybe I can speak to you in your own language of ideology.... isn't DEMOCRACY a good and American thing?
    Appeal to reason ? You havent been reasonable once in this entire thread.

    A thread thats really just a poorly vieled, lazy and warmed over bit of anti-American propaganda.

    You started this ridiculous " poll " with insults and mischaracterizations so let me set your goofy ass straight once and for all.

    Its America, your'e responsible for providing for your own " wants and needs ".

    Can you understand that or is the concept of self reliance and personal responsibillity too much for you to handle ?

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •