View Poll Results: Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?

Voters
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  • Homosexuality is normal

    68 47.22%
  • Homosexuality is not normal

    46 31.94%
  • Homosexuality is natural

    92 63.89%
  • Homosexuality is not natural

    19 13.19%
  • Other/unsure

    12 8.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

  1. #471
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Not so.
    That's not an answer to the the condition's contrariness to the evolutionary design and purpose of sex and sexual organs.
    It's merely stating that it isn't restricted to humans.
    Your PC is overriding your very good science. This is true of the vast majority of similarly smart people.
    Natural:
    "existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind." - obvious, and that's why it's pointed out that it occurs in nature

    "of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something." - it is natural for homosexuals

    Sex or sex organs serve multiple purposes. If you don't believe this, go your whole life without jerking off. And once again, gays can reproduce. My gay uncle has 3 kids and is hardly alone in that. Just like heteros can go without reproducing. How unnatural and contrary to evolution they must be huh.

  2. #472
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Precisely.

    It's frankly still motivated primarily by the intrinsic need to pass on one's genes even today. Pleasure is simply the incentive.
    You see, I do understand.

    First of all, this is an entirely different statement then you've made previously. You seem to be shifting your words to suit the moment and it makes you appear inconsistent to me.

    Also, I thought you were a Catholic and believed there is some divine plan behind and purpose for everything. How does your seeming acceptance of evolution and use of it to defend your position fit into that?

    Lastly, we are more highly evolved creatures today then we were at (assuming you're right) whatever primitive level of our evolution we may have been at when we were driven purely by instinct. As higher functioning animals we have the capacity to override our instincts (ie: dieting, suicide) So the argument that at some point some kind of base instinct was driving our sexual behavior and there was no pleasure present seems irrelevant when arguing why more evolved humans seek it out today
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  3. #473
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You are claiming that identifying as a homosexual is something new... it isn't. The very term Lesbian comes from the Greeks. Lesbians are female homosexuals. Females that identify as homosexuals.
    No. The term "lesbian" didn't refer to female homosexuals until about 100 years ago, the current connotation has nothing to do with how ancient Greeks conceptualized sexual relations.

  4. #474
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    You see, I do understand.

    First of all, this is an entirely different statement then you've made previously. You seem to be shifting your words to suit the moment and it makes you appear inconsistent to me.

    Also, I thought you were a Catholic and believed there is some divine plan behind and purpose for everything. How does your seeming acceptance of evolution and use of it to defend your position fit into that?
    It doesn't matter whether you're talking about nature's order as being a result of "God's will" or simple chance as ordained by practical feasibility. It is ultimately the same thing.

    Assuming that God actually exists in the first place, and was the creator, and therefore designer, of the physical universe, it logically follows that nothing in that universe would have occurred without his knowledge or foresight. In short, if the world works a certain way, it is only because he made it that way in the first place.

    Lastly, we are more highly evolved creatures today then we were at (assuming you're right) whatever primitive level of our evolution we may have been at when we were driven purely by instinct. As higher functioning animals we have the capacity to override our instincts (ie: dieting, suicide) So the argument that at some point some kind of base instinct was driving our sexual behavior and there was no pleasure present seems irrelevant when arguing why more evolved humans seek it out today
    Okay, but what does that change?

    The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people don't really think about why they want sex one way or the other. They seek it out more or less innately.

    They do so, because they are being driven primarily by instinct and biological programming which is almost completely beyond their control.

    A person can think whatever pretty thoughts they want. At the end of the day, however, they are still ultimately beholden to their physical body, their physical mind, and all the intrinsic wants, needs, and limitations that come along with them.

    In this case, it simply happens to be an objectively observable fact that the primary reason why the human body and human instinct so strongly desire sexual activity in the first place, is because the act serves a reproductive function which ensures the survival of the species as a whole, and of an individual's own genetic lineage in particular. Sexuality wouldn't exist at all without that greater purpose. It would simply be a waste of time, energy, and resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

    Frankly, that's exactly what "recreational" sex is today when one removes the reproductive element as well.

    I mean... Really, do you not see the intrinsic irony of suggesting that human beings are "evolved" enough to overcome their animal instincts, while, at the same time, lauding the virtues of messily smooshing up against one another for basically no other reason than instinctual drive and the natural chemical "high" that goes along with it?

    You are advocating a lot of things here. However, I wouldn't say that dignified and restrained "conquest of nature" is really one of them.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-17-14 at 12:46 AM.

  5. #475
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    "family values" / religious right is my guess

    but at least they can accept homosexuality is no choice, if a "defect" still...progress!
    finally!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  6. #476
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    No. The term "lesbian" didn't refer to female homosexuals until about 100 years ago, the current connotation has nothing to do with how ancient Greeks conceptualized sexual relations.
    Did I say that the term was used since the times of ancient Greece or did I simply say that is where the term derived from?

    ... but I can see that you are not open to honest debate, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  7. #477
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    No kidding. I've been trying to explain to Gath that gays can reproduce for this reason (well, to have kids) for a long time and just doesn't seem to believe it.
    I don't think I ever denied this.

    I simply said that it was kind of a needlessly complicated way of doing things when a person could simply want to have reproductive sex with members of the opposite sex in the first place as a matter of instinct.

    I also find it bemusing how they ignore that jerking off feels good for the same exact reason sex does, and it in fact lowers the sex drive temporarily...so it acts counter to this "instinct" to reproduce. How come we're built so that our hands can reach down there so readily if orgasm is solely to encourage reproduction? How come anal sex feels good for that matter? They can't account for non-reproductive orgasm at all.
    Masturbation serves other purposes. So long as it isn't taken to extremes, it can help to keep to reproductive system properly regulated and in good working order.

    Frankly, even beyond that, no one denied that it wasn't possible for instincts to be twisted in ways that go beyond their evolutionary purpose. We see the same thing all the time with people who suffer from obesity and other forms of addiction.

    It's simply a flaw intrinsic to our biology.

  8. #478
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    Right, but the only standards by which it is immoral is via religious ones which are a pretty ridiculous standard to go by (e.g it is a sin to eat shellfish).
    Yep, that and the ever-popular "it's a sin to use birth control" to prevent getting stuck with an unwanted pregnancy. Which is why the conservative anti-gay extremists hate homosexuality so much; it's sex WITHOUT the unwanted burden of reproduction.

  9. #479
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liévin View Post
    Alright. I was just pointing out that recognising that homosexuality is 'normal' or 'natural' is not a step towards accepting it, but even a step back from that, considering it is 'normal' in many cultures we otherwise find repugnant morally, and natural only in that it is practiced in the wild. It is a usage of body parts in a way that nature did not intend, however, and it violates the biological function of intercourse, namely to reproduce.
    Whether to reproduce or not isn't for YOU to decide. It's for EACH person, woman or man, gay or straight, to decide that for herself or himself. Personally, I chose long ago NEVER to reproduce, but I have no intention of denying myself sex for the rest of my life because of it. I chose long ago never to marry either.

    Marriage and parenthood are OPTIONS, not obligations, which means anyone can opt out of one or both.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Gay sex is unnatural and immoral.
    Let me guess why you believe such nonsense; because it doesn't lead to the unwanted burden of reproduction. Here's a news flash for you, there are many straight folks, myself included, who don't ever intend to reproduce. Sex without reproduction is fine by me.

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