View Poll Results: Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?

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  • Homosexuality is normal

    68 47.22%
  • Homosexuality is not normal

    46 31.94%
  • Homosexuality is natural

    92 63.89%
  • Homosexuality is not natural

    19 13.19%
  • Other/unsure

    12 8.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liévin View Post
    I claimed it makes one more likely to be a pedophile. Source: The proportions of heterosexual and homos... [J Sex Marital Ther. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI



    Spreading a disease that is incurable is immoral. Yes, anyone who engages in sexual activities knowing they have an incurable disease is damn immoral in my opinion. Of course maybe widespread disease doesn't concern you, I don't know.

    Sexually Transmitted Diseases in Men Who Have Sex With Men

    STI infection rates among gay men reach 'crisis' levels - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent

    Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men.

    "In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday."



    Early Onset and Deviant Sexuality in Child Molesters

    "Of our total sample, 29% reported having deviant fantasies prior to age 20, and this was most pronounced (41.1%) among those who molested the sons of other people". I advise you to read the whole thing, though.



    I've posted the sources. Did you think I'd make claims without sources ?

    You're an apologist for sexual deviancy with enormous costs on society, both on the taxpayer, ethical conscious and moral fabric.

    We would say in France Il ne faut pas se fier aux apparences. I'm not sure of your intentions, but to place a niche of individual interests above the common good is treason.
    You can also say in France or Flandres: Vous êtes plein de merdre. Nice shot gun of assertions.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    Look your new here. You're not dealing with a bunch dumbs dumbs, you might want to up your game.
    The irony is that you've resorted to this, while I've remained cordial the whole time and posted statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    But by your standards we view these countries as "repugnant"?
    Once again you have misread and misunderstood my point, but this does not surprise me, judging by your syntax and prose in your (presumably?) home language.

    I claimed that (many) cultures which accept homosexuality, are viewed with repugnance by us. The point being if many cultures accept something, it does not make what is accepted intrinsically moral. Many examples of such ; child marriage, slavery, and on and on.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    The problem here Grip and the reason there is so much noise is because of of the people who don't think this way and the efforts that make at limiting the freedoms of the people who have a different orientation then them. It's like being tired of hearing people insist on an end to spousal abuse. It is no less just a cause or less worthy of attention because you "think" it shouldn't happen
    I don't hear about spousal abuse nearly as much. There is a risk of making people insensitive to your cause if cried about too often. Never has society been more accepting of alternative sexual orientations and yet louder and louder the chant becomes. I have a neighbor who's an older gay man and whenever people start to bring up sex in conversation he disappears. I asked him, why does that bother you and he said, I'd rather be liked for my personality, not some private part of my life that I have no choice over. I asked aren't you sensitive to the acceptance of the gay community and he replied, only when there's actual discrimination, like fighting for SSM. The constant bleating of the congregation for everyone to love their gayness is asinine, as much as religious people trying to force me to love their beliefs.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #24
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Since your post is handy I will use it: the occurs in nature argument has a problem. We know that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, but to the best of my knowledge, we have no way to know if any animals other than humans are actually homosexual. This does not mean that homosexuality is not natural, but saying some animals exhibit the behavior is not the same thing as homosexuality the orientation.

    well, as i see it " nature " doesn't necessarily hasten a comparison between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom.
    I see it more as a state of existence absent of "man-made" external factors or causes ( such as upbringing , living environment, socio-economic class, etc)

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liévin View Post
    The disproportionate share of homosexuals among pedophiles, disproportionate rate of a wide-range of diseases transmitted and held by homosexual men, disproportionate deviant and violent sexual fantasies? The uncomfortable fact is that it is positively linked with a large number of social pathologies, and the statistics are too emphatic to ignore..
    None of these are true.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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  6. #26
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    It's natural in the sense, that yes, it's a naturally occuring thing and we need to accept it as it is. Homosexually can be observed in animals too, like lions and dolphins and various primates, etc
    Heterosexuality is also natural. As in, it's natural that people are either straight or gay. I mean, we will be able to locate the "gay gene", which NO, we haven't done so yet. That's just bad journalism. There are a whole lot of genes that determine sexuality just like there are a whole lot of genes that determine many aspects of the human condition.
    Whether bisexuality as a sexual preference is a natural occuring thing or is it something taught is less clear but it's another discussion all together and if you adopt the view that homosexuality is natural and heretosexuality is natural, there is no reason why combining them to create bisexuality should be considered anything different.

    Whether it's normal, what do you understand by normality is a far more subjective definition than what is considered natural.

    I mean, it is normal for me to do a certain activity every day but for others, it would not be normal. Like running for instance, it is normal for me to get up at 5:30 and go out for a run.
    But thinking in terms of macro society, I don't know if whether the designation of "normal" should be denied to homosexuals. I think it shouldn't be but I am not paying much attention to this concept. I mean, from my perspective, there is no point in legislating or doing some sort of discussion on the issue. So it shouldn't become a flash-word like there are some words today in society. Like how some people think and tend to pursue the agenda that the term "homo" which is shorthand for homosexual, is an insult rather than just a shorthand version of homosexual. And people will call you on that. So that's a talking point society has to have whether or not it becomes a "bad" word, sorry, politically incorrect word. And add another term to the PC lexicon. So I don't think the discussion should happen or if it does, i think the result of that should be that it makes no bloody difference if one uses the term "normal" to differentiate straight from gay people. But then again, I can also understand why some gays would be offended by being left out of the "normal" pool of people. I just don't know if the correct way to tackle this issue is through the eyes of the PC police. That's all.

    I would like to remind people of another thing.
    a) not everything that is natural is good for you.
    This discussion is framed on stupidity. It honestly is. "natural". This just shows the kind of superficial understanding of reality that only an unenlightened society would have. People use the term "natural" as a selling point. You see it on products and all sort of things that cost x% more because they're "natural" as opposed to the other. As if "natural" is somehow better. No, it isn't. With the exception of 1 banana, the cavendish banana, all the others are "natural" and you can't eat them coz they'll poison you (not necesarily deadly but you could get some disease or stomach aches). The sole banana that can be eaten is only such because of many works in "molding" the banana the way it is. On a side note, this is why that guy from that anti-atheist video about how the banana is the ahteists' worst nightmare is stupid in at least 2 ways. But that's a different story.
    You know what else is natural? A pack of wolves. And they'll eat you.
    Natural is not a selling point. It is in an unenlightened society.

    b) Normal is an adaptable notion.
    Neutral example: 100 years ago it was normal to ride a horse, now it's normal to get on the bus or drive a car. It would seem odd if someone rode a horse today in the city.
    Degenerative example: 100 years ago it was normal for society to dress properly when you went outside, listen to proper music and discuss matters using a certain level of language and good manners. Nowadays it's normal for some people to listen to rap, dress like loser gangsters and speak in a way that if we had any self-respect left, we'd consider it audio torture. Listening to proper music is considered snobism, dressing up properly is considered "business" or the sign of snobs, and talking properly and explaining your opinions in a coherent manner and not using "you know what I mean?" all the time is considered talking down to people as opposed to being "real". Real dumb I guess. And it all ties in together.
    Positive example: It used to be normal for men (usually of the working class, I don't mean to demean the working class, I am part of it, but it was a reality) to be alcoholics and beat their wives when they got home. I mean, look it up, that's one of the reasons why prohibition was considered a good initiative to start. it didn't work, but alocholism was a real problem and something had to be done. Nowadays, alcoholism is down, domestic abuse is also down and things are better. People are more responsible from this perspective.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    .....................
    I don't hear about spousal abuse nearly as much.
    my point was referring to the fact that you being tired of hearing about does not diminish the necessity for the conversation

    There is a risk of making people insensitive to your cause if cried about too often.
    I don't consider defending one's rights to be "crying". ( If it is you need to be sure to avoid the gun forums)

    Never has society been more accepting of alternative sexual orientations and yet louder and louder the chant becomes.
    Do you feel the same way about other civil rights issues?


    I have a neighbor who's an older gay man and whenever people start to bring up sex in conversation he disappears. I asked him, why does that bother you and he said, I'd rather be liked for my personality, not some private part of my life that I have no choice over.
    The key work here might be old

    I asked aren't you sensitive to the acceptance of the gay community and he replied, only when there's actual discrimination, like fighting for SSM. The constant bleating of the congregation for everyone to love their gayness is asinine, as much as religious people trying to force me to love their beliefs
    I think your discomfort with the topic encourages you to interpret a conversation about equal rights as crying and wanting to be loved. I don't think the gay community is asking anyone to love them. Some are responding with love because that's there instinct. I believe the majority strive for it to become a non-issue
    Last edited by opendebate; 07-12-14 at 04:45 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liévin View Post
    I claimed it makes one more likely to be a pedophile. Source: The proportions of heterosexual and homos... [J Sex Marital Ther. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI
    Right you are citing a 23 year old study. that has long since been refuted.

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...inter/10-myths

    THE FACTS
    According to the American Psychological Association, "homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are." Gregory Herek, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who is one of the nation's leading researchers on prejudice against sexual minorities, reviewed a series of studies and found no evidence that gay men molest children at higher rates than heterosexual men.

    Anti-gay activists who make that claim allege that all men who molest male children should be seen as homosexual. But research by A. Nicholas Groth, a pioneer in the field of sexual abuse of children, shows that is not so. Groth found that there are two types of child molesters: fixated and regressive. The fixated child molester — the stereotypical pedophile — cannot be considered homosexual or heterosexual because "he often finds adults of either sex repulsive" and often molests children of both sexes. Regressive child molesters are generally attracted to other adults, but may "regress" to focusing on children when confronted with stressful situations. Groth found that the majority of regressed offenders were heterosexual in their adult relationships
    .





    Spreading a disease that is incurable is immoral. Yes, anyone who engages in sexual activities knowing they have an incurable disease is damn immoral in my opinion. Of course maybe widespread disease doesn't concern you, I don't know.

    Sexually Transmitted Diseases in Men Who Have Sex With Men
    Yes, knowing you have an incurable disease and then spreading it with the intent to get others sick is indeed criminal. But again you are conflating. Being Homosexual does not mean that you are, by default, plagued by some sexual transmitted disease. Trying to conflate Homosexuality with STDs as if one equals the other is fallacious and unfounded. STDs are a result of unprotected sex and anyone can be effected by it. Including Heterosexuals. Contracting a std does not make you immoral, it's make you unfortunate and a product of bad decision making in regards to the saftey of your sex. What some one chooses to do from there on out with the information regarding their std state will determine their morality, which is still subjective. If a man or woman informs their partner that they have a std and the partner consents to still engaging sexually with them then no foul play has taken place.

    Also - you are fixated on the gay men like many others like you. the lesbian community has a lower rate of std contraction than straight men in proportion to their population. Which further proves that std's has nothing to do with orientation.




    Your link is addressing child molesters relative to their population not homosexuals. You need to provide a source that indicates that homosexuals have a high rate of deviant fantasies. Your inflated conclusions based on your lack of expertise on the subject or the studies does not qualify as evidence.



    I've posted the sources. Did you think I'd make claims without sources ?
    You didn't prove your claims sorry. You have made extravagant conclusions based on assumptions you made from information you gathered from links. Your notion that homosexuals are somehow the manifestation of Sexual diseases and therefore are immoral for spreading it is unfounded and ridiculous. Your conflation of sexual predators and homosexuals is outdated. Your 22 year old obscure study has long since been refuted.
    You're an apologist for sexual deviancy with enormous costs on society, both on the taxpayer, ethical conscious and moral fabric.
    I'm not an apologist. I'm just intelligent enough to spot a bigot using tired arguments that have been destroyed ten times over.

    We would say in France Il ne faut pas se fier aux apparences. I'm not sure of your intentions, but to place a niche of individual interests above the common good is treason.
    To inflate your bigoted perception of homosexuality to somehow represent the good of a country is delusion.
    Last edited by Zinthaniel; 07-12-14 at 05:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    In my own experience here, people seem to ignore a posters professional experience or training if the app pro holds a view that is disagreed with.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Did this about normal a few years ago, and decided it was time to try again. Was a fun and interesting thread at the time, so hopefully this will be as well. Two simple questions. Is Homosexuality "normal", and is homosexuality "natural"? If you would, please include your reasoning.

    Poll will allow multiple choices, pick a choice for the "normal" question and for the "natural" question. Poll will be up in a couple minutes.
    To be honest I really do not know if homosexuality is normal or natural. I really do not care. The way I look at it, if two people love each other nothing else really matters. If they are just getting their jollies off, so what as long as both agree or however many it is. As long as everyone is willing and consenting, have at it.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    homosexuality is not normal (ie it is outside the statistical norm)
    homosexuality is natural (ie it is a behavior that occurs in nature)
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