View Poll Results: Is homosexuality "normak" and "natural"?

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  • Homosexuality is normal

    68 47.22%
  • Homosexuality is not normal

    46 31.94%
  • Homosexuality is natural

    92 63.89%
  • Homosexuality is not natural

    19 13.19%
  • Other/unsure

    12 8.33%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

  1. #261
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    I think there are some people who are genuinely gay but I think, overall, it's more about being young and super liberal.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    The simple fact is that humanity is it's own creation and responsibility as are individuals.


    Putting the cart before the horse here just a tad, don't you think?

    At best, we are creations of our environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Here's a question. What use is there for caring about natural? If we stuck to the natural ten there would be no internet. Avoiding the natural has been a cause of great progress for humanity
    Why care about the intrinsic design of any machine or closed system?

    Progress is all well and good. However, progress which ignores our ingrained nature tends to be doomed to failure.

    If nothing else, the collapse (and horrific consequences) of just about every Twentieth Century ideology to try and "remake" human nature proves that much.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-15-14 at 11:34 AM.

  3. #263
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day. Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.
    So? If he wanted to hide it badly enough or was in deep denial, that's what he'd do. So many gay people have been in sham relationships and marriages, you wouldn't believe it. Some can't hide it so well but those who can, there wouldn't be any indication unless you caught them with a dick in their mouth.

    And why on earth would he change his sexuality, to lose his marriage?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Here's a question. What use is there for caring about natural? If we stuck to the natural ten there would be no internet. Avoiding the natural has been a cause of great progress for humanity
    It has to do with the legal criteria of making a claim of discrimination in court. What OP doesn't realize is that if nothing else, homosexuality falls under equal protection of handicapped/disabled people. A person is homosexual because they are born with the opposite sex's olfactory region and so they are attracted to the same sex eventhough this is biologically in-congruent with their anatomy. IMO, this doesn't matter, because gays are perfectly functional despite the birth defect, and so the law should accommodate them.

  5. #265
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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post


    Putting the cart before the horse here just a tad, don't you think?

    At best, we are creations of our environment.
    We may have started out that way before we gained decent technology, but we shape ourselves and our environment rather rigorously these days and that will only increase, unless there is some major catastrophe.

    Humans Evolving More Rapidly Than Ever, Say Scientists | Science | WIRED

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Why care about the intrinsic design of any machine or closed system?

    Progress is all well and good. However, progress which ignores our ingrained nature tends to be doomed to failure.

    If nothing else, the collapse and horrific side effects) of just about every Twentieth Century ideology to try and "remake" human nature proves that much.
    Our ingrained nature changes with progress. Also there is a difference between an ingrained nature that matters and one that does not. For example, the idea of legality, rights, and civilization are fairly new innovations that have only been around for a few ten thousand years. Yet now they are considered by many to be natural.

    Our way of thinking is far from natural, likely changed very recently by modern education. Yet the adaptations are highly successful so far (we live longer and healthier than ever). Human nature really isn't something that is set in stone and there has been shown to be a lot of wiggle room. Its not the hard and fast rule that you imagine it is. Like all living organisms, humans are an adaptive species and human nature changes in response to pressures, that's a feature of biological systems.

    What isn't natural of today can be quite natural for tomorrow, this is why we shouldn't look solely to the natural but be willing to shape and mold our own natures as we have done for at least the last thirty thousand years.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    I dunno, I knew the guy for years and there was no indication he ever was gay, we were always out going hitting on girls back in the day. Perhaps he may have turned bisexual or something but I believe that someone can change their sexual orientation.
    was he The Todd?


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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Normal how so? Mathematically? Or in terms of social acceptance?
    What definition you use is up to you.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by shavingcollywob View Post
    I think there are some people who are genuinely gay but I think, overall, it's more about being young and super liberal.

    So you are claiming most homosexual people are liberal?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So you are claiming most homosexual people are liberal?

    Young and super liberal, specifically.

    I don't doubt that there are people who are genuinely gay but I think it's a huge fad in young and super liberal communities, like college campuses. That's not to say a fad is bad, mind you. I just think most of these kids are going to graduate college, get jobs, and eventually "realize" they're not gay, marry different sex partners, and be heterosexual for the rest of their lives.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality "Normal" and "Natural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    We may have started out that way before we gained decent technology, but we shape ourselves and our environment rather rigorously these days and that will only increase, unless there is some major catastrophe.

    Humans Evolving More Rapidly Than Ever, Say Scientists | Science | WIRED
    Our environment has changed dramatically. We, however, have not.

    At the end of the day, we're still the same cavemen we ever were. That's kind of exactly the problem here.

    Our instincts don't know how to effectively deal with the modern world, and it changes far too quickly for our species to adapt.

    Our ingrained nature changes with progress. Also there is a difference between an ingrained nature that matters and one that does not. For example, the idea of legality, rights, and civilization are fairly new innovations that have only been around for a few ten thousand years. Yet now they are considered by many to be natural.

    Our way of thinking is far from natural, likely changed very recently by modern education. Yet the adaptations are highly successful so far (we live longer and healthier than ever). Human nature really isn't something that is set in stone and there has been shown to be a lot of wiggle room. Its not the hard and fast rule that you imagine it is. Like all living organisms, humans are an adaptive species and human nature changes in response to pressures, that's a feature of biological systems.

    What isn't natural of today can be quite natural for tomorrow, this is why we shouldn't look solely to the natural but be willing to shape and mold our own natures as we have done for at least the last thirty thousand years.
    To the contrary, I'd argue that human nature is essentially static, and that there's nothing intrinsically "new" about how we view the world today versus the past.

    All the old staples of human, and even primate, civilization - hierarchy, gender roles, tribal identity, territoriality, war, profit motive, sex drive, and etca - are all still in place in terms of basic principle. They have simply adapted on a superficial basis to meet the needs of our modern environment.

    Frankly, it wouldn't appear that they have even done so in a particularly efficient or productive manner anyway. Modern society is rife with problems, largely stemming from the fact that our instinctual means of addressing certain circumstances are struggling to keep pace with how the world has changed.

    The Japanese and Europeans, for instance, are probably having more sex now than they ever have. However, they are also presently well on their way to extinction either way regardless, simply because human instinct has no way of accounting for the impact artificial inventions like the pill have had upon our fertility.

    Trying to argue that fundamentally "unnatural" or "counter-instinctual" circumstances can be overcome through "willpower" or "re-education" alone is exactly the same trap the Marxists fell into a century ago. I'm sorry, but it didn't work any better for them in that era than it is going to work for us today. Human beings simply don't work like that.

    The only method by which you are going to achieve the results you are advocating here is by fundamentally changing humanity, and human nature, itself through direct, and physical means. Frankly, that opens an entirely new kind of "Pandora's Box" in and of itself.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-15-14 at 12:44 PM.

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