View Poll Results: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

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  • Yes

    17 26.56%
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    47 73.44%
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Thread: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face? [W:166]

  1. #221
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You didn't see 'Heathers'?
    Probably but I don't remember the reference.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #222
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Probably but I don't remember the reference.
    "She" underlined Eskimo in the book with the suicide letter. The idea is no one understood her, they slurred her.

  3. #223
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    They did not originate the term, a pejorative. It's like the 'Alaska Eskimos'.


    it is not, in its linguistic origins, a fundamentally offensive word


    AUE: FAQ excerpt: "Eskimo"
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  4. #224
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Eskimo is a slur.

    The people did not name themselves that. The name was given to them by others (the majority power) as a degradation. Just like Redskin.
    God. All these terms do not have to have a degrading origin...

    Eskimo (n.) Look up Eskimo at Dictionary.com1580s, from Danish Eskimo or Middle French Esquimaux (plural), both probably from an Algonquian word, such as Abenaki askimo (plural askimoak), Ojibwa ashkimeq, traditionally said to mean literally "eaters of raw meat," from Proto-Algonquian *ask- "raw" + *-imo "eat." Research from 1980s in linguistics of the region suggests this derivation, though widely credited there, might be inaccurate or incomplete, and the word might mean "snowshoe-netter." See also Innuit. Eskimo pie "chocolate-coated ice cream bar" introduced 1921.

    Online Etymology Dictionary
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #225
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Getting rid of stereotypes does not require the banning of talk about race. How ridiculous.
    Why ridiculous? Can you think of any other way in which to get rid of racial stereotypes, both positive and negative?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You are claiming slurs are inherent to the existence and/or discussion of race. That's messed up.
    Slurs are not. Racial stereotypes are.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  6. #226
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Everything is a slur.
    Apparently.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  7. #227
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    People weren't avoiding anything. The OP lacked actual context. It's only natural for people to fill in the missing context.

    Except that race wouldn't come up in such a dialog. When introduced most people either say "hello" or "hello mr./mrs. <insert last name here>. No one says "Oh hey!, A redskin!". Not because it is or isn't offensive. But because from childhood we are trained so much in saying "hello" or "hello mr./mrs. <insert last name>" that it is ingrained into us. It's pretty much become instinct to greet that way. As such you provided a false context. Something that simply wouldn't happen due to our training in greetings.

    Please. We all know why these Redkins threads are starting up. Don't even pretend to claim that these threads are nothing more than attempts to portray the word "redskins" as having nothing but a negative connotation no matter what. And don't pretend that you're not trying to do the same.
    Except that it is irrelevant whether or not race would actually come up in that dialog. The point is that race does come up in some dialogs. You should make up your own if you don't agree with mine. And when you do make up any dialog you wish where race comes up, would you choose the phrase 'Native American' or 'Redskin'. Again, focusing on whether the dialog I presented was realistic (it wasn't, and it really wasn't meant to be) is beside the point. I didn't think the realism of my dialog would become yet another way for people to avoid the question, so I didn't put as much effort into it as I could have to make a realistic one where race comes up. Do you REALLY think my point rests on whether I presented a realistic dialog? Does it REALLY matter if it is realistic? Do you think I REALLY want to convince you that it was realistic?

    Zyphlin got what I was saying, or he at least addressed it. And when he did, I made it pretty clear that I don't think I agree with the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    You don't think the OP was about the situation where it is necessary to use a person's racial designation, and you have a choice between something polite, like Native American, or something else, like redskin?
    And in such cases I'd use "native american" or "indian" for the reasons listed, just as I'd use "african american" instead of "black" or "colored".

    Despite that, I don't think "black" is a slur word and I don't think colored when used to describe a black person is ALWAYS a slur and similarly I don't think Redskins is always a slur. Context matters.

    When addressing someone based on a racial designation, if I don't know them well, I'm always going to go with the MOST benign one possible because in general it's intelligent not to offend those you're having to deal with in some fashion. This is the same reason I don't talk about Politics or Religion with people at work or in public unless they're close friends.

    If I do know the person, then I'm likely to use the words that are most apt to use commonly. It's that simple.
    And finally, you, the first conservative leaning person on this thread to do so, I think, have addressed the OP. Amazing how difficult that was to drag it out of someone.

    So, now, why would you avoid the use of 'black' if it isn't offensive in some way? I want to know because I think it has a loose application pertaining to the use of the word redskin.
    I already stated that TWICE now, so let me do it again.

    I recognize that SOME people within that group do find it offensive to be labeled as such, so when dealing with people on a direct level where I have to reference race I tend to go with the word with the least potential to offend that would normally be in my vocabularly regarding that race.

    A PERSON finding a word offensive is different than the word inerently being only usable in an offensive manner.

    It's also because it's a situation where I'm directly referencing a person. Referencing things AROUND a person is a situation that needs less discretion. If I'm having to reference a black person by their race, I'm probably going "african american". If I'm talking about racial relations AROUND a black person, I'll probably talk use the word "black" as a reference to that race.

    The reason for that is I think, in general, people are less apt to reasonably look at the context of a statement that is directed at them then a generalized one because of the personal nature of it. So the more likely a scenario is that I think someone will quickly take offense if they find something offensive, the more I'll try to be polite and go with the least likely to offend topic or word. The less likely that they'll take quick offense in a scenario, the more natural I'll let myself speak.

    But because I'm not an ass or a hyper partisan type looking to make a point in everything I do, I don't go out of my way to use words or express views or thoughts that don't normally come to my mind simply to prove a point.

    I've never suggested there aren't native americans that find Redskins offensive in all forms, OR that would find it offensive when used specifically in the modern day to refer to them or their race. I absolutely acknowledge it CAN be used in an offensive manner, and some ARE offended. And because I have politeness and tact, when I'm addressing someone specifically (or a group of someones specifically) I'm going to go with the least objectionable. But what I have suggested is that it's not ALWAYS offensive in all contexts and that a majority of native americans are not significantly offended or bothered by it as a name of a sports team.
    I can see what you are saying, and might even agree with you.

    My own take on it is whether a significant part of a group of people finds it offensive. When it is a small minority, I put it down to people simply wanting to be offended. But when it is a larger minority or majority, I tend to think there is cause for it to be considered offensive. For example, words can change to being offensive to a significant minority when they are in widespread use with even a derogatory tone.

    I haven't really definitively heard whether the word 'redskin' offends very many these days. I wouldn't use it in the contexts meant by the OP because I just don't mind being cautious, and I know that there is a perfectly accepted phrase that has the necessary meaning. So, I can sympathize with anyone that has actually addressed the OP by stating that they wouldn't use it in the contexts meant by the OP, and yet state that this doesn't necessarily mean that the word is offensive.

    The OP attempts to make a point that avoidance of the use of a potentially offensive word in place of an accepted word means that the potentially offensive word is in fact offensive. I think it fails to make that point.
    The OP did bring up an interesting point that bears discussion. It is one that often comes up in these kinds of debates and I think it should be addressed. Zyphlin addressed it perfectly.

    But, it was ridiculous to take the OP at its most ridiculous scenario, and then "discuss" that, when there was a more sensible interpretation available to discuss. In the first place, why choose the most ridiculous scenario? Why 'fill in the context' with the one that makes the OP look the most foolish? You think that is honest dealing? It is a very common dishonesty, but its commonality doesn't make it less dishonest. The people doing it know Deuce, and at the very least must know he isn't that stupid, whatever their disagreements. I think it is childish.

    And where the **** did I try to pretend the OP wasn't about portraying the word Redskins as a slur?
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  8. #228
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Intellectual Integrity my ass. What pathetic idiocy, unless you don't understand what a False Dilemma is...

    False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy

    The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are are similarly fallacious.



    Logical Fallacies» False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy

    I have repeatedly shown that there is at least one other option available. If you try to weasel your way out again I am done with you. Feel free to post your tripe again... or you could grow a pair and man up for a change.
    You keep taking me to mean something I did not, and you cannot demonstrate that I did mean what you are making out. Feel free to do so, but I have presented a dialog that demonstrates what happened when someone got it. See post http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1063446203

    And please, by all means, feel free to be "done with me".
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  9. #229
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Zyphlin got what I was saying, or he at least addressed it. And when he did, I made it pretty clear that I don't think I agree with the OP.
    To be fair it took MULTIPLE posts back and forth between us before I finally got your point and got to a point where the core of your point was something I actually understood and saw as reasonable. Your initial points regarding the "context" of the OP still don't make sense to me...but I realized that you weren't really talking about context of the OP, but actually just making ASSUMPTIONS as to the most benign and straight forward contrived manner that the OP could've been placed as.

  10. #230
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    Re: Would you call a Native American "redskin" to their face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    To be fair it took MULTIPLE posts back and forth between us before I finally got your point and got to a point where the core of your point was something I actually understood and saw as reasonable. Your initial points regarding the "context" of the OP still don't make sense to me...but I realized that you weren't really talking about context of the OP, but actually just making ASSUMPTIONS as to the most benign and straight forward contrived manner that the OP could've been placed as.
    Well, then we are at an impasse. To me, the conservatives (generally it is conservatives) are making the OP out to be as ridiculous as it can be. I still believe that is the most contrived way to interpret it, and it says more about the people contriving it than the person who posted it.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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