View Poll Results: Is America a Christian Nation?

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  • Yes

    28 25.45%
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    82 74.55%
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Thread: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

  1. #521
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    The U.S. is not a Christian nation. But the majority of its citizens are Christians.

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those aren't rights, those are laws. There is a difference. And those existed in cultures and societies that are not Christian. Many existed long before Christianity was ever a religion, or even before Judaism came about. There have been laws against killing of some kind (murder laws) for a very long time. Sumerians had murder laws. And they had laws against stealing. Other cultures had/have laws against lying of some form or another. We do not have laws against many of the other things, such as idolatry, not saying the lord's name in vain or worshiping the Ten Commandments' God above all others. In fact, about 3-5 of the Ten Commandments could not be put into laws because they would violate our rights guaranteed in the Constitution, particularly the 1st Amendment.
    Well, I never claimed that. You did and I agreed with you. Yes, we are talking about rights, which were outlined in the BoR. Many of them are based on Christian beliefs. Since our founders were mostly CHRISTIAN and not any of the other religions you mentioned, then yes, they are based upon Christian beliefs. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I don't understand your objection.

  3. #523
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well, I never claimed that. You did and I agreed with you. Yes, we are talking about rights, which were outlined in the BoR. Many of them are based on Christian beliefs. Since our founders were mostly CHRISTIAN and not any of the other religions you mentioned, then yes, they are based upon Christian beliefs. I mean, really, this is just common sense. I don't understand your objection.
    No, they aren't "Christian based beliefs" though. Just because someone is Christian, does not make everything they believe "Christian" in nature. Other people from other religious beliefs have thought of and believe that many of the ideals within the Constitution are good things to live by, the same way that many cultures and religions have had a main belief that people should "treat others as they wish to be treated", even long before Jesus said this. That belief was out there already. Jesus didn't invent it. Which means Christianity did not invent it.

    Show me where in the Bible exactly that it says that a man can worship any God he wishes? Pretty sure one of the Ten Commandments, the very first one (plus the one on idolatry) contradict our very right to freedom of religion. Taking the lord's name in vain violates the right of freedom of speech. A person has a right to disobey and even dishonor their parents, for good reasons or bad, without punishment for that. You have a right to "covet" your neighbors stuff. In fact, this is a major factor in the success of capitalism. "Keeping up with the Jones'." As I've said, laws against killing of some kind (murder) have existed long before even Judaism, and killing someone violates their right to life, if it is considered "murder". Stealing violates a person's right to property. Lying is allowed, since it would violate our right to freedom of speech if it wasn't, up to it being able to cause significant harm to another person, such as in court or lying in some official capacity. Adultery laws which are used to criminalize sex outside of marital vows could likely never hold up in court now after the Lawrence decision. There are no fire arms in the Bible, and I doubt ownership of weaponry was ever really an issue covered directly by the Bible. Due process involves fairness at trials, and while likely mentioned in the Bible, was not actually practiced in Christian religions in general. It is a concept created by men, not the Bible or Christianity.

    You are attempting to give a religion credit for the thoughts of men, for the ideas of men. That is wrong. The religion itself is not responsible for the ideas those men had. Plus, many of our founding fathers were deists, meaning that they didn't necessarily believe in everything the Bible or specific Christian denominations put out, said, believed. This, along with the fact that many more people have contributed to our ideals and rights in this country, which are not based on purely Christian beliefs, shows that our ideals do not come from Christianity. In fact, the South argued for a long time that they were completely morally fine with God in accordance with Biblical teachings in keeping slaves because such a practice is allowed in the Bible.

    Oh, and you brought up the Ten Commandments, which are laws/rules, not rights. And, as I've pointed out, they are laws/rules in which many (at least half) violate guaranteed rights in the US Constitution.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, they aren't "Christian based beliefs" though. Just because someone is Christian, does not make everything they believe "Christian" in nature. Other people from other religious beliefs have thought of and believe that many of the ideals within the Constitution are good things to live by, the same way that many cultures and religions have had a main belief that people should "treat others as they wish to be treated", even long before Jesus said this. That belief was out there already. Jesus didn't invent it. Which means Christianity did not invent it.

    Show me where in the Bible exactly that it says that a man can worship any God he wishes? Pretty sure one of the Ten Commandments, the very first one (plus the one on idolatry) contradict our very right to freedom of religion. Taking the lord's name in vain violates the right of freedom of speech. A person has a right to disobey and even dishonor their parents, for good reasons or bad, without punishment for that. You have a right to "covet" your neighbors stuff. In fact, this is a major factor in the success of capitalism. "Keeping up with the Jones'." As I've said, laws against killing of some kind (murder) have existed long before even Judaism, and killing someone violates their right to life, if it is considered "murder". Stealing violates a person's right to property. Lying is allowed, since it would violate our right to freedom of speech if it wasn't, up to it being able to cause significant harm to another person, such as in court or lying in some official capacity. Adultery laws which are used to criminalize sex outside of marital vows could likely never hold up in court now after the Lawrence decision. There are no fire arms in the Bible, and I doubt ownership of weaponry was ever really an issue covered directly by the Bible. Due process involves fairness at trials, and while likely mentioned in the Bible, was not actually practiced in Christian religions in general. It is a concept created by men, not the Bible or Christianity.

    You are attempting to give a religion credit for the thoughts of men, for the ideas of men. That is wrong. The religion itself is not responsible for the ideas those men had. Plus, many of our founding fathers were deists, meaning that they didn't necessarily believe in everything the Bible or specific Christian denominations put out, said, believed. This, along with the fact that many more people have contributed to our ideals and rights in this country, which are not based on purely Christian beliefs, shows that our ideals do not come from Christianity. In fact, the South argued for a long time that they were completely morally fine with God in accordance with Biblical teachings in keeping slaves because such a practice is allowed in the Bible.

    Oh, and you brought up the Ten Commandments, which are laws/rules, not rights. And, as I've pointed out, they are laws/rules in which many (at least half) violate guaranteed rights in the US Constitution.
    Look, none of this changes the facts that the founders' beliefs were based upon Christian principals. Are you denying this or something? Just WHAT is your objection?

    I brought up the Ten Commandments after you mentioned "laws." Go back and check for yourself. Then you went and said it isn't about "laws" but rights, and I agreed. Yes OUR rights here in America are based upon the founders' Christian beliefs. Sorry that seems to bother you so much.

  5. #525
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Look, none of this changes the facts that the founders' beliefs were based upon Christian principals. Are you denying this or something? Just WHAT is your objection?

    I brought up the Ten Commandments after you mentioned "laws." Go back and check for yourself. Then you went and said it isn't about "laws" but rights, and I agreed. Yes OUR rights here in America are based upon the founders' Christian beliefs. Sorry that seems to bother you so much.
    They weren't based on "Christian" principles just because they were Christians. I have proven this. The very First Amendment contradicts the first few (at least) Ten Commandments. They are not based on Christian beliefs. You may wish to believe this, but you cannot prove it.

    And perhaps you should look at what you posted in that post where you brought up the Ten Commandments, because you were discussing rights and then mentioned the Ten Commandments as evidence of your beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They weren't based on "Christian" principles just because they were Christians. I have proven this. The very First Amendment contradicts the first few (at least) Ten Commandments. They are not based on Christian beliefs. You may wish to believe this, but you cannot prove it.
    You haven't proven anything. Just because ALL of the commandments are included doesn't prove a thing. Just because the founders wanted others to be able to practice their own beliefs without being persecuted because of it does NOT mean that our "rights" as outlined in the BoR are not based upon Christian principals, because they were. They believed that our rights were God given and the BoR is supposed to be so that the government cannot intrude upon them.

    THEN, we have people like you who think the government should grant us rights.

  7. #527
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    You haven't proven anything. Just because ALL of the commandments are included doesn't prove a thing. Just because the founders wanted others to be able to practice their own beliefs without being persecuted because of it does NOT mean that our "rights" as outlined in the BoR are not based upon Christian principals, because they were. They believed that our rights were God given and the BoR is supposed to be so that the government cannot intrude upon them.

    THEN, we have people like you who think the government should grant us rights.
    All of the Commandments are included in what? They are not included in our laws, not in reality. Those laws that coincide with some Commandments could just as easily be said to come from other cultures or simply the principles of individual rights rather than the Bible.

    You are the one making the assertion that the rights outlined within the US Constitution (BoR technically only covers the first 10 Amendments) are "biblically based". You haven't provided any evidence to prove this.

    Some may have believed that our rights were "God-given" but that doesn't make them any more right about it than you are. Heck, they can't even prove that God inspired the Bible so therefore they cannot prove that any rights they feel came from the Bible or Christianity actually came from God to begin with instead of just men.

    I am of the belief that rights only exist when we are willing to fight for those rights. Nothing can grant us any rights at all. We must be willing to fight for our own rights against any who attempt to restrict or violate those rights.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    All of the Commandments are included in what? They are not included in our laws, not in reality. Those laws that coincide with some Commandments could just as easily be said to come from other cultures or simply the principles of individual rights rather than the Bible.

    You are the one making the assertion that the rights outlined within the US Constitution (BoR technically only covers the first 10 Amendments) are "biblically based". You haven't provided any evidence to prove this.

    Some may have believed that our rights were "God-given" but that doesn't make them any more right about it than you are. Heck, they can't even prove that God inspired the Bible so therefore they cannot prove that any rights they feel came from the Bible or Christianity actually came from God to begin with instead of just men.

    I am of the belief that rights only exist when we are willing to fight for those rights. Nothing can grant us any rights at all. We must be willing to fight for our own rights against any who attempt to restrict or violate those rights.
    So you don't believe that the BoR and our "natural" rights are based upon Christianity in this country? Seriously? You are just in denial apparently.

    Q: What were the founders’ personal religious beliefs?

    A: They varied widely. The religious views of the framers of the Constitution, as indicated by their own writings, ran the gamut from traditional Christianity to freethought, which included the kind of Enlightenment Deism that posited a god who set the universe in motion but subsequently took no part in the affairs of men-the “unconcerned deity” to whom Scalia refers in his McCreary opinion. The founders’ favorite word for God was “Providence.” Thomas Jefferson wrote a book during his first term as president in which he explicitly stated his belief that Jesus was a great prophet and a good man but not divine-or the son of a divinity. What the founders shared, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, was the Enlightenment conviction that if God existed, he expected humans to rely on their own reason to determine the course of human destiny; the assignment of faith to the sphere of individual conscience rather than public duty; and hostility to all ecclesiastical hierarchies. These rationalist convictions carried the day when the former revolutionaries sat down to write the Constitution. The nature of our government was determined not by the founders’ private religious beliefs but by their public actions, which separated church and state. - Susan Jacoby
    I think the above kind of solidifies that, yes, Christian beliefs most definitely played a HUGE role in the nature of our rights. Unlike what you stated, they are NOT based upon men or governmental entities.

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    OMG, the height of insult for some I guess. Lol. There is a Christian influence, sorry to tell you.
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  10. #530
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    So you don't believe that the BoR and our "natural" rights are based upon Christianity in this country? Seriously? You are just in denial apparently.

    I think the above kind of solidifies that, yes, Christian beliefs most definitely played a HUGE role in the nature of our rights. Unlike what you stated, they are NOT based upon men or governmental entities.
    You just proved that it would come from "Enlightenment principles" not Christian principles. Using human reason, not religion, to determine our course. You can't prove that "Enlightenment principles" are Christian based either.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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