View Poll Results: Is America a Christian Nation?

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  • Yes

    28 25.45%
  • No

    82 74.55%
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Thread: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

  1. #471
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Again, you're arguing against a strawman. I did not make such a suggestion.

    My suggest was claiming that our goverment being secular inherently makes it "silly" to suggest the U.S.A. might be a "Christian Nation" is incorrect, as the government of a state does not inherently determine what kind of "nation" one could claim exists within the population.

    And ever since saying that you've been hacking away at a strawman of your own creation about plurality of religion and all this other nonsense...no of which deals with my comment relating to your claim regarding a secular government.

    If you want to suggest the US is not a Christian Nation because you don't believe the religious views of a majority of the population are enough to constitute declaring it such a thing....that's absolutely fine. I'm not arguing against that. But your claim was that because we're a secular GOVERNMENT it's silly to even suggest we're a Christian Nation, and that is a ridiculous argument.
    The problem though is that Christian's want America to be a Christian Nation in order to influence the Government to enact laws that coincide with Christian beliefs (abortion, marriage etc). Thus bringing into play the structure of the government being secular.

    Countless times I have heard Christians cite their lord as the place where our Rights come from not the Constitution. They believe that our laws where inspired by the bible. That our Government was designed around the bible. They are not just saying that we are a Christian Nation because there is a majority that describe themselves in a poll as Christian, they are claiming that everything that is America government and all is Christian, therefor making this a Christian Nation. They deny the Separation of Church and state claiming that everything that the government does must stand up to Christian principles.

    Trying to claim that Christians only claim that our nation is Christian is intellectually dishonest.


    "So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." Gary north

    Gary North - Ron Paul curriculum[edit]


    Gary North delivering a speech at a barbeque at Ron Paul's home in June 2013
    In addition, North offers the Ron Paul Curriculum, a home school online curriculum associated with former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul, which is free for grades K-5 and available to paid members from grades 6–12.[15][16] As Director of Curriculum Development, North has outlined four goals of the educational project: providing a "detailed study" of the "history of liberty"; teaching a "thorough understanding of Austrian economics"; serving as a "an academically rigorous curriculum that is tied to primary source" material rather than textbooks; and teaching "the Biblical principle of self-government and personal responsibility", which North calls "the foundation of the market economy".[17]
    Gary North (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  2. #472
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Our constitution and Bill of Rights is based on Christianity.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  3. #473
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Our constitution and Bill of Rights is based on Christianity.
    What part exactly?

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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The problem though is that Christian's want America to be a Christian Nation in order to influence the Government to enact laws that coincide with Christian beliefs (abortion, marriage etc). Thus bringing into play the structure of the government being secular.

    Countless times I have heard Christians cite their lord as the place where our Rights come from not the Constitution. They believe that our laws where inspired by the bible. That our Government was designed around the bible. They are not just saying that we are a Christian Nation because there is a majority that describe themselves in a poll as Christian, they are claiming that everything that is America government and all is Christian, therefor making this a Christian Nation. They deny the Separation of Church and state claiming that everything that the government does must stand up to Christian principles.

    Trying to claim that Christians only claim that our nation is Christian is intellectually dishonest.


    "So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." Gary north

    Gary North - Ron Paul curriculum[edit]


    Gary North delivering a speech at a barbeque at Ron Paul's home in June 2013
    In addition, North offers the Ron Paul Curriculum, a home school online curriculum associated with former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul, which is free for grades K-5 and available to paid members from grades 6–12.[15][16] As Director of Curriculum Development, North has outlined four goals of the educational project: providing a "detailed study" of the "history of liberty"; teaching a "thorough understanding of Austrian economics"; serving as a "an academically rigorous curriculum that is tied to primary source" material rather than textbooks; and teaching "the Biblical principle of self-government and personal responsibility", which North calls "the foundation of the market economy".[17]
    Gary North (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    LOL, well to be honest, you would probably want your rights to come from God rather than your government.

  5. #475
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    LOL, well to be honest, you would probably want your rights to come from God rather than your government.
    That's not necessary.

    When the founders wrote "endowed by their Creator" and "self evident", they were referring to a simple understanding. Everyone (extremely rare exceptions based on specific circumstance) wants to live. One cannot deny ones innate desire to live. It is natural, then, to presume that others have the same desire.

    Universal (extremely rare exceptions) desires, recognized by society, are socially natural rights. They are not rights derived by imagining man alone with nature, or any kind of individual natural state. After all, rights are a social construct and thereby have no meaning without the existence of the 'other'.

    Thus, some rights are natural socially. It doesn't matter if they came from a God or aliens or whatever. The important thing is that we recognize that they are self evident via simple logic and reason.

    Other natural rights include freedom of religion and self defense. These are things that everyone desires. These rights are self evident.

    Let's remember that when discussing natural rights, we are not discussing rights that arise from a state of nature but rights that arise naturally (self evidently) from society.

    My (socially) natural rights are granted by logic and reason and undeniable self evidence.

  6. #476
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    That's not necessary.

    When the founders wrote "endowed by their Creator" and "self evident", they were referring to a simple understanding. Everyone (extremely rare exceptions based on specific circumstance) wants to live. One cannot deny ones innate desire to live. It is natural, then, to presume that others have the same desire.

    Universal (extremely rare exceptions) desires, recognized by society, are socially natural rights. They are not rights derived by imagining man alone with nature, or any kind of individual natural state. After all, rights are a social construct and thereby have no meaning without the existence of the 'other'.

    Thus, some rights are natural socially. It doesn't matter if they came from a God or aliens or whatever. The important thing is that we recognize that they are self evident via simple logic and reason.

    Other natural rights include freedom of religion and self defense. These are things that everyone desires. These rights are self evident.

    Let's remember that when discussing natural rights, we are not discussing rights that arise from a state of nature but rights that arise naturally (self evidently) from society.
    I guess I can agree with that.

  7. #477
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I guess I can agree with that.
    The disconnect, for many people, is taking a social construct (rights) and attempting to apply it to an isolated individual in a "state of nature". The reduction of context renders an understanding of the sociological derivative (self evidence) of 'natural' (meaning socially natural) beyond grasp.

  8. #478
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The disconnect, for many people, is taking a social construct (rights) and attempting to apply it to an isolated individual in a "state of nature". The reduction of context renders an understanding of the sociological derivative of 'natural' beyond grasp.
    What the heck is that supposed to mean?

  9. #479
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The problem though is that Christian's want America to be a Christian Nation in order to influence the Government to enact laws that coincide with Christian beliefs (abortion, marriage etc). Thus bringing into play the structure of the government being secular.

    Countless times I have heard Christians cite their lord as the place where our Rights come from not the Constitution. They believe that our laws where inspired by the bible. That our Government was designed around the bible. They are not just saying that we are a Christian Nation because there is a majority that describe themselves in a poll as Christian, they are claiming that everything that is America government and all is Christian, therefor making this a Christian Nation. They deny the Separation of Church and state claiming that everything that the government does must stand up to Christian principles.

    Trying to claim that Christians only claim that our nation is Christian is intellectually dishonest.


    "So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." Gary north

    Gary North - Ron Paul curriculum[edit]


    Gary North delivering a speech at a barbeque at Ron Paul's home in June 2013
    In addition, North offers the Ron Paul Curriculum, a home school online curriculum associated with former U.S. Congressman Ron Paul, which is free for grades K-5 and available to paid members from grades 6–12.[15][16] As Director of Curriculum Development, North has outlined four goals of the educational project: providing a "detailed study" of the "history of liberty"; teaching a "thorough understanding of Austrian economics"; serving as a "an academically rigorous curriculum that is tied to primary source" material rather than textbooks; and teaching "the Biblical principle of self-government and personal responsibility", which North calls "the foundation of the market economy".[17]
    Gary North (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    natural rights do not come from our constitution.

    they come from our humanity.

  10. #480
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    Re: America is or is not a Christian Nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    What the heck is that supposed to mean?
    The context is changed. We begin talking about a social construct: rights. The context is social. And then someone (those who do not understand rights as a social construct) changes (reduces) context to a single individual alone in "nature" (I put nature in quotes because separating man from nature, in the first place, is a logical fallacy).

    This abandonment of context results in all kinds of crazy ideas about where (socially) natural rights come from.

    The founders knew these rights are self evident and come from logic and reason. Saying they come from a Creator was just a way of saying they're natural.

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