View Poll Results: Was the Iraq War Worth it?

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Thread: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

  1. #261
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    If you feel it had to be done, then you support the actions. Duh.
    Duh, like I said. To a point. Then you go off track thinking I am all in on remaking the world in our image.

  2. #262
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    There was two actual noted dissents within the IC, and that was that the DOE and the CIA disagreed over the nature of the building materials being ordered by Saddam - with the CIA saying that they were parts for centrifuges and the DOE saying they weren't sure. The nuclear program that tied to was the most contentious - and the one where any of the allies dissented. Biological and Chemical were pretty much shared - in fact, the Germans gave us the greatest amount of information that turned out to be false on the Bio program. Additionally, the INR tacked on a footnote that they believed that the surety levels were overstated. Furthermore, CT wasn't part of the WMD debate.
    As my sources stated there was more than just two. There was many.


    Sorry bud. Even Bush admits: White House Admits WMD Error - CBS News
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSN-Kku_rFE

    As already been reported they are defunct weapons which most likely not operable.
    Iraq: Islamist Militants Take Saddam Hussein Chemical Weapon Complex - TIME



    Hey, remember a couple of years ago when Syria first started circling the drain how crazy ole cpwill was saying maybe we should send in some SF strike teams to secure and remove all that crap scattered around this area, or at least destroy it? Man, I am so glad we didn't listen to that guy.
    Some people outside of DP took you seriously or something?

    In the meantime, your response is that we dismissed a member of Saddam's inner circle who saying something that could help out his boss? I mean - um, duh? Heck, I can use the fact that Cheney said that Bush made the right decision to prove that invading Iraq was a good call using that logic. There is also nothing wrong with the NSA wiretapping program, and no one in the administration has ever abused their powers - I mean, Jay Carney said so, right? Heck, the Iraqi information minister swearing there were no American troops in Iraq is credible by that reasoning.
    Are you done ranting? Just admit you were wrong.


    But again. Feel free to read the actual post-mortem. Mind you, I don't think you will - it would destroy a narrative that is just too emotionally rewarding. But one day you might be more interested in complicated, messy ground-truth, and when that comes, look up Robert Jervis.
    All your "facts" turned out to be a bunch of BS.


  3. #263
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    As my sources stated there was more than just two. There was many.
    On the contrary - your sources stated that there were Iraqi members of Saddam's inner circle who told us Saddam didn't have anything, which was dismissed. Additionally, the article you cite on the IC agrees with me that the IC got it wrong.

    I haven't been arguing we were right, I have been arguing that we were wrong about ongoing production. Bush admitting that we were wrong about that does not mean that we were wrong about him maintaining some WMD and illegal missiles. All your article is is an agreement that the single claim of Nigerien yellow cake was based on bad sources, not that it was a deliberate falsehood - but that the data that we had at the time had since been superseded by other information.

    However, I can't help but notice that this argument is a strawman, given that it does not address the fact that we did, in fact, find two tons of enriched uranium, though no ongoing nuclear program. Exactly as I have described.

    As already been reported they are defunct weapons which most likely not operable.
    Iraq: Islamist Militants Take Saddam Hussein Chemical Weapon Complex - TIME
    After however many years of sitting on a shelf? Hopefully. I'm not quite sure how stable Iraqi Mustard/Sarin is. What is relevant, however, isn't that they are (hopefully) useless in 2014, what is relevant is that they were there in 2003.

    Some people outside of DP took you seriously or something?
    Yes, people outside DP take me seriously.

    Are you done ranting? Just admit you were wrong.
    I am not wrong. And this is also a strawman to avoid the fact that you are depending upon flawed reasoning. There was good reason to dismiss the words of Saddam loyalists just as there was good reason to dismiss the words of the Iraqi information minister, just as no one believes that Jay Carney in his role of White House Press Secretary would have deliberately damaged the position of the President, or failed to argue the administrations' case.

    All your "facts" turned out to be a bunch of BS.
    oh. So we didn't find two tons of uranium? We didn't find chemical weapons? We didn't find illegal missiles? We weren't wrong about the ongoing production program? There wasn't a CIA / DOE disagreement over the centrifuges? The INR wasn't the only main portion of the IC to dissent on the confidence levels? We didn't get a bunch of bad information from the Germans on the Bio program? My facts are in order because I happen to have studied this case professionally. That's why I'm directing you to the post-mortem.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-19-14 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #264
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary - your sources stated that there were Iraqi members of Saddam's inner circle who told us Saddam didn't have anything, which was dismissed. Additionally, the article you cite on the IC agrees with me that the IC got it wrong.
    Did you read the 4 sources i provided on this point?


    I haven't been arguing we were right, I have been arguing that we were wrong about ongoing production. Bush admitting that we were wrong about that does not mean that we were wrong about him maintaining some WMD and illegal missiles.
    He didnt maintain them. Those weapons went obsolete after the first gulf war!

    All your article is is an agreement that the single claim of Nigerien yellow cake was based on bad sources, not that it was a deliberate falsehood - but that the data that we had at the time had since been superseded by other information.
    We had more than just that data. But instead we ignored the data that went against the Bush rhetoric.

    However, I can't help but notice that this argument is a strawman, given that it does not address the fact that we did, in fact, find two tons of enriched uranium, though no ongoing nuclear program. Exactly as I have described.
    Nope .
    Uranium in Iraq
    snopes.com: Yellowcake Uranium Removed from Iraq


    After however many years of sitting on a shelf? Hopefully. I'm not quite sure how stable Iraqi Mustard/Sarin is. What is relevant, however, isn't that they are (hopefully) useless in 2014, what is relevant is that they were there in 2003.
    If you read the article it points out its a dismantled facility.

    Yes, people outside DP take me seriously.
    no im the king around here


    oh. So we didn't find two tons of uranium?
    Se above

    We didn't find chemical weapons?
    Nope

    We didn't find illegal missiles?
    Nope

    We weren't wrong about the ongoing production program?
    We were


    here wasn't a CIA / DOE disagreement over the centrifuges?
    There was dissenting information that we ignored.


  5. #265
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Did you read the 4 sources i provided on this point?
    Yes. I wonder if you have, because when I read them, they say interesting things like, the IC was wrong, which is what I have been trying to point out to you.

    He didnt maintain them. Those weapons went obsolete after the first gulf war!
    He did maintain them - all chemical and bio weapons have a shelf life, however, the sarin artillery shells were still active enough that they could be sympathetically detonated in 2004.

    We had more than just that data. But instead we ignored the data that went against the Bush rhetoric.
    what, Joe Wilson saying he went and drank tea with Nigerien officials and they assured him they would never work with evil dictators because they were such nice guys?



    Having a source say that "yes he had uranium, but it's okay because he had it sealed up and under guard" does not obviate the fact that he did, in fact, have two tons of enriched uranium and a bunch of other radioactive crap buried as well.

    If you read the article it points out its a dismantled facility.
    Yes. ALMOST as if he had RETAINED the WMD he already had WITHOUT having an ongoing production program EXACTLY as I have been saying.

    no im the king around here
    If that's what gets you out of bed in the morning.

    See above
    I see above your source agreeing with me that there was, in fact, two tons of enriched uranium, although it does not address the other radioactive materials.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    We didn't find chemical weapons?
    Nope
    Yes, we did. Firstly because the insurgents got ahold of them, we also found some buried in facilities, and now (as reported to you) ISIS has their hands on some.

    Tests Confirm Sarin in Iraqi Artillery Shell
    ISIS Occupies Saddams Chemical Weapons Facility
    500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction

    DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
    WASHINGTON, DC 20511
    The Honorable Peter Hoekstra Chairman Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence House of Representatives Washington, DC. 20515

    Dear Chairman Hoekstra: Thank you for your letter of June 19, 2006, requesting that we declassify “key points”from a National Ground Intelligence Center report on the recovery of chemical munitions in Iraq.Attached please find the requested paper.

    Sincerely,
    44
    John D. Negroponte

    UNCLASSIFIED Subject: lraqi Chemical Munitions 21June 2006 Purpose: This summary provides an unclassified overview of chemical munitions recovered in lraq since May 2004.

    Key Points:
    -- Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.
    -- Despite many efforts to locate and destroy lraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.
    -- Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the black market. Use of these weapons by terrorists or insurgent groups would have implications for Coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside lraq cannot be ruled out.
    -- The most likely munitions remaining are sarin and mustard-filled projectiles.
    -- The purity of the agent inside the munitions depends on many factors,including the manufacturing process, potential additives, and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal.
    -~ It has been reported in open press that insurgents and lraqi groups desire to acquire and use chemical weapons.


    So... Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    We didn't find illegal missiles?
    Nope
    UN Team Finds Iraq Has Illegal Missiles
    Saddam says he will Defy the UN over Illegal Missiles
    The very missiles Saddam Hussein fired at U.S. forces in Kuwait appear to have been the same weapons he either claimed not to possess or agreed to destroy.
    13th Iraqi Missile Fired at Kuwait


    So..... Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    We weren't wrong about the ongoing production program?
    We were
    Indeed we were wrong about the ongoing production program.

    There was dissenting information that we ignored.
    The DOE disagreement over centrifuges wasn't annotated to the President, the INR note on the confidence level was, as I recall, reported at the least to the NSC. Neither of which would have overridden the overwhelming assessment about Saddam's intentions to retain his WMD capability. Again, you cannot build a credible case out of the data available in 2003 the comes to the conclusion that Saddam had gotten rid of his WMD Some very smart people at the CIA spent a lot of time trying to do precisely that in the after action review / post-mortem phase in order to highlight analytical errors and improve processes. They were unsuccessful - all you can really do is highlight the gaps and reduce the confidence levels (certainly from "it's a slam-dunk, Mr President").

  6. #266
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes. I wonder if you have, because when I read them, they say interesting things like, the IC was wrong, which is what I have been trying to point out to you.
    You claimed there was no dissent within our community there was. There was also dissent within the international community.



    He did maintain them - all chemical and bio weapons have a shelf life, however, the sarin artillery shells were still active enough that they could be sympathetically detonated in 2004.
    One roadside bomb! Rally the troops! Found what we came for!



    what, Joe Wilson saying he went and drank tea with Nigerien officials and they assured him they would never work with evil dictators because they were such nice guys?
    You must be playing dumb now. See post #228.



    Having a source say that "yes he had uranium, but it's okay because he had it sealed up and under guard" does not obviate the fact that he did, in fact, have two tons of enriched uranium and a bunch of other radioactive crap buried as well.
    2 sources. Within the article backed up by 6 more sources.



    Yes. ALMOST as if he had RETAINED the WMD he already had WITHOUT having an ongoing production program EXACTLY as I have been saying.
    Moral of the story the program has been obsolete since the Iran-Iraq war.


    If that's what gets you out of bed in the morning.
    Its a struggle since im not a morning person.



    I see above your source agreeing with me that there was, in fact, two tons of enriched uranium, although it does not address the other radioactive materials.
    Either again you are playing dumb or cant read.

    Yes, we did. Firstly because the insurgents got ahold of them, we also found some buried in facilities, and now (as reported to you) ISIS has their hands on some.

    One.. One artillery shell that was detonated by rebels. So apparently we invaded a whole country over one shell! Wow! 'Merica!
    "The chem-bio threatBut Kay, the former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, said the discovery does not provide evidence that Saddam was secretly producing weapons of mass destruction after the Gulf War, as alleged by the Bush administration to justify the war that removed him from power."
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4997808/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/bomb-said-holddeadly-sarin-gas-explodes-iraq/#.U6ObtvldWG8

    All ineffective.




    So... Yup.
    Key word in that letter: DEGRADED. All ineffective.

    Hmm in fact he did have illegal missiles that reached the limit.


    Indeed we were wrong about the ongoing production program.
    And we were told "he is perusing a bomb that come in the form of a mushroom cloud"

    The DOE disagreement over centrifuges wasn't annotated to the President, the INR note on the confidence level was, as I recall, reported at the least to the NSC. Neither of which would have overridden the overwhelming assessment about Saddam's intentions to retain his WMD capability. Again, you cannot build a credible case out of the data available in 2003 the comes to the conclusion that Saddam had gotten rid of his WMD Some very smart people at the CIA spent a lot of time trying to do precisely that in the after action review / post-mortem phase in order to highlight analytical errors and improve processes. They were unsuccessful - all you can really do is highlight the gaps and reduce the confidence levels (certainly from "it's a slam-dunk, Mr President").
    You are saying we "listened to the very smart people" and at the same time we ignored the same "very smart people". ... If we are going to go to war wouldnt you want to be 100% sure? Why would we ignore people and push them aside simply because they are saying something some people dont want to hear? Better to get the whole picture and actually be right before sending Americans to die and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to die. Hell, maybe that is just me tho.


  7. #267
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"





    Megyn Kelly says no.
    GLENN BECK SAYS NO.

    The war in Iraq was absolutely, categorically, irrefutably, not worth it. The neocons who are beating the drums of war now deserve the same label that the neocons did a decade ago: Liars. Cold-hearted, sociopathic, liars. Nobody with an ounce of reason should a word they have to say.

    And on that note, it is fascinating to see some of the same voices who decry those who don't agree with them as "sheeple" or "minions" line up behind war criminals like Dick Cheney all over again. Makes you wonder if their judgment can be trusted, either.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

  8. #268
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Yes. It saved Iraqi lives and reduced tensions in the area. Saddam had to be removed and it is good when 43 nations in the world assisted in removing him. Unfortunately, the "peace" was lost due to mismanagement after Dec, 2008 when the UN resolutions on the war ended.

  9. #269
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    With the situation in Iraq unfolding do you believe that the Iraq War was worth it?
    As a non American I can stand back and look at this without blinkered party political myopia clouding my response. The Iraq war was initiated basically in order to get an inept president re elected for a second term. Post 9/11 and with Bin Ladens head missing from the pole after the Afghanistan invasion something had to be done. The American public were baying for Muslim blood and some saleable candidates had to be found because doing nothing would have meant electoral suicide. Iraq was the perfect patsy There was no plan for the aftermath of this operation just that a president could ride a big pile of Muslim coffins into the Whitehouse for a second term.

    Iraq has served its purpose for the US. The US electorate got its revenge and Bush got his second term. At least Hussein was the devil we knew. Back in 2003 I had predicted this current state of affairs would come to pass just as soon as the troops left and it was probably obvious to more than just me at that time

  10. #270
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    Re: Was the Iraq War "Worth it"

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    With the situation in Iraq unfolding do you believe that the Iraq War was worth it?
    The current situation has nothing to do with worth. It was predictable because the war was handled wrong.

    Value is an individual concept, not a societal one. To many of those who served, yes, because we place the wellbeing of others, of our society or not, above our individual welfare. To those who never served or like socialist, who are selfish and never placed anything above their own wellbeing, it probably wasn't worth it. To isolationist who believe that only "Americans" are deserving of the freedoms and liberty given to us by our fore fathers, whom, btw, were helped by others and didn't do it all alone, again, they probably won't think it was.

    Just because those who made the choices about the war did it badly, doesn't equate to the effort not being worth trying.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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