View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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    41 74.55%
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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #251
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You should not ignorantly and arrogantly act as if your OPINION is in any way "clear" fact.

    There is nothing inherent to Libertarian principle that would determine whether or not a Libertarian would feel that an unborn chlid is vested with rights or not.

    And if he is, there is PLENTY of evidence that a Libertarian can feel it's reasonable to infringe upon someone's rights in the protecting of rights for those who are unable to protect them themselves.
    It is my opinion and it's the law. No one has any rights except as recognized and accorded by our legal system. I try to keep the religious side of it out of the discussion because we dont base our laws on religious views. To give the unborn rights, I'd like to see how and why but people always just say....because all human beings have them. They dont...that's factual and if you want the unborn to have them, I'd love to see why...of course it leads to why born people have rights....but no one actually tries to develop a discussion, they get insulted and fall back on terminology. That discussion can take place within or without the Libertarian position but nobody bothers, period.

    It's all just my opinion but that's how I phrased it. And then I try to support that with an explanation.

    It's clear here that many LIbertarians feel no differently about abortion than anyone else and adjust their perceptions of how it fits into that platform just the way the rest of us justify our position on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #252
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    See the bold? Of course you have to accept it. The wording itself (your own wording) should make it very clear that it's not up to you to accept or decide what a woman does with her body. A Libertarian should certainly respect a person's sovereignty over their own body. As for the unborn....they clearly have no rights....there is no way to accord them any rights that would not grossly infringe on a woman's inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So of course, it's up to her alone.

    As for the second part, that's just silly. Rape and murder clearly infringe on the 3 inalienable rights I just listed. That statement is just like saying, "I have no argument!"

    Yes, people do have different opinions on the SCOTUS decision that examined and denied personhood and rights to the unborn. I respect people that would CHOOSE not to have abortions. It's when they would demand, believing they have the right to do so, that others take the risks of pregnancy and childbirth against their will that I object to.

    Choice seems like a reasonable position for Libertarians. Obviously from the posts in this thread, not everyone agrees.
    For a libertarian, being pro-choice or being pro-life are each reasonable positions. No one has disproved that.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  3. #253
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    For a libertarian, being pro-choice or being pro-life are each reasonable positions. No one has disproved that.
    I have not said otherwise as the discussion progressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #254
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    It's a joke. It points out the difference between charity and taxation.
    we shouldn use jesus in our jokes

    its name was charity during that period
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  5. #255
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It is my opinion
    Which is fine. Acting like something that's your opinion should be "clear" as the opinion of anyone else is assinine on such a notoriously divided issue.

    and it's the law.
    Which in and of itself is hardly "Clear" considering the various pretzel shaped logic of the various laws on the books relating to unborn fetuses. In some cases they absolutely DO have rights, as depicted by laws where someone can be charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman. On the flip side, in some cases they seem to not have rights, as indicated by the allowance of an abortoin. The notion of whether or not chlidren who are not born have rights is far from "clear".

    Furthermore, something that is the law does not mean that a Libertarian must believe it's correct. If that was the case then Libertarians would believe that the government collecting a database of emails sans a warrant is okay because it's the law. Just because the law currently deems chlidren don't have rights, just like the law currently deems that you don't have the right to be free of search and seizure in certain instances, doesn't mean it's "clear" libertarians must agree with that.

    No one has any rights except as recognized and accorded by our legal system.
    And this is your argument for why Libertarians can't be pro-life? That once the law says something that's what it is? Jesus Christ, you better alert a LOT of libertarians that all their bitching about government survelliance and government regulation are not something a libertarian can do.

    I try to keep the religious side of it out of the discussion because we dont base our laws on religious views.
    I haven't said a single iota about religion, and one can be completely athiest and still believe that an unborn child has rights in varying degrees.

    They dont...that's factual
    No, that's opinion. It's inherently an "opinion" as by and large "rights" are conceptual in nature and diverse in the definitions in which people define them by.

  6. #256
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have not said otherwise as the discussion progressed.
    So what am I missing exaclty....

    Did you answer the OP's question saying "Yes, libertarians can be pro-life but I'M not". Or are you answering it saying "No, libertarians can not be pro-life"

    If you're giving reasons why you personally aren't...that's fine. If you're suggesting that's how libertarians should/do think, and if they think differently then it's not a libertarian poistion, then that's a different story.

    Based on your VOTE, it absolutely does appear that you're suggesting libertarians can not be pro-life.

  7. #257
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Which is fine. Acting like something that's your opinion should be "clear" as the opinion of anyone else is assinine on such a notoriously divided issue.



    Which in and of itself is hardly "Clear" considering the various pretzel shaped logic of the various laws on the books relating to unborn fetuses. In some cases they absolutely DO have rights, as depicted by laws where someone can be charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman. On the flip side, in some cases they seem to not have rights, as indicated by the allowance of an abortoin. The notion of whether or not chlidren who are not born have rights is far from "clear".

    Furthermore, something that is the law does not mean that a Libertarian must believe it's correct. If that was the case then Libertarians would believe that the government collecting a database of emails sans a warrant is okay because it's the law. Just because the law currently deems chlidren don't have rights, just like the law currently deems that you don't have the right to be free of search and seizure in certain instances, doesn't mean it's "clear" libertarians must agree with that.



    And this is your argument for why Libertarians can't be pro-life? That once the law says something that's what it is? Jesus Christ, you better alert a LOT of libertarians that all their bitching about government survelliance and government regulation are not something a libertarian can do.



    I haven't said a single iota about religion, and one can be completely athiest and still believe that an unborn child has rights in varying degrees.



    No, that's opinion. It's inherently an "opinion" as by and large "rights" are conceptual in nature and diverse in the definitions in which people define them by.
    AFAIK you are reading a whole lot into my post that isnt there.

    You are also welcome to your opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #258
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So what am I missing exaclty....

    Did you answer the OP's question saying "Yes, libertarians can be pro-life but I'M not". Or are you answering it saying "No, libertarians can not be pro-life"

    If you're giving reasons why you personally aren't...that's fine. If you're suggesting that's how libertarians should/do think, and if they think differently then it's not a libertarian poistion, then that's a different story.

    Based on your VOTE, it absolutely does appear that you're suggesting libertarians can not be pro-life.
    Then I guess you didnt understand much of what I wrote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #259
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Then I guess you didnt understand much of what I wrote.
    Well you can either clarify, or I'll just go forward taking what you voted for yo be your point when responding, either way

  10. #260
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well you can either clarify, or I'll just go forward taking what you voted for yo be your point when responding, either way
    I was about as clear as I feel like taking the effort to be. Pretty sure my overall view is in there. Or take my vote. Either way. Both are accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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