View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #241
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They cannot be treated equally, so you are avoiding that point.
    I'm not ignoring but the point is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And of course the born baby has more 'voice' once born. It immediately makes demands on society...crying, demanding to be fed, demanding attention.
    In the womb it makes demands on society in doctors visits, additional eating habits, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    THe born can individually act on society and be acted on by society. The unborn cannot.
    Why is it any different?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #242
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm not ignoring but the point is invalid as far as I'm concerned.

    In the womb it makes demands on society in doctors visits, additional eating habits, etc.


    Why is it any different?
    Those demands are not recognized by society and not acted on society. The woman invites the doctor to do so.

    It is a distinguishing characteristic, that's all, however it is one that can be used to indicate how it can infringe on the rights of others and how others can infringe on it.

    And why is equal treatment of the born and unborn an invalid issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #243
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Those demands are not recognized by society and not acted on society. The woman invites the doctor to do so.
    Sure they're recognized in the form of healthcare visits, bills, work and labor, all sorts of things occur and are recognized by society. Who invites who to do the work is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It is a distinguishing characteristic, that's all, however it is one that can be used to indicate how it can infringe on the rights of others and how others can infringe on it.

    And why is equal treatment of the born and unborn an invalid issue?
    Within the womb our outside of it, the rights of the individual apply. Because you do not recognize the unborn as an individual is not my concern. Equal treatment under the law therefore applies. You may not recognize those rights but I do. Therefore it is understandable why I am pro-life and a Libertarian.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #244
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    There is no concrete or empirical evidence to show that the government should protect anyone's rights. It's impossible to prove that a 30 year old is equivalent to a 40 year old.
    Equivalent on what basis? In many cases I can prove a given 40 YO better than a given 30 YO. In other cases the reverse is true. Ultimately with all things considered it is impossible to prove that anyone is the equivalent of anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Sure they're recognized in the form of healthcare visits, bills, work and labor, all sorts of things occur and are recognized by society. Who invites who to do the work is irrelevant.

    Within the womb our outside of it, the rights of the individual apply. Because you do not recognize the unborn as an individual is not my concern. Equal treatment under the law therefore applies. You may not recognize those rights but I do. Therefore it is understandable why I am pro-life and a Libertarian.
    Even within the constitution there are right that are for the citizen only and not for the non-citizen. This recognition is equivalent to the recognition of whether or not a being is <term>, that term being whatever it is that we recognize the individual, human or otherwise, as above the common animal.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  5. #245
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Ultimately with all things considered it is impossible to prove that anyone is the equivalent of anyone else.
    exactly
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  6. #246
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Sure they're recognized in the form of healthcare visits, bills, work and labor, all sorts of things occur and are recognized by society. Who invites who to do the work is irrelevant.

    Within the womb our outside of it, the rights of the individual apply. Because you do not recognize the unborn as an individual is not my concern. Equal treatment under the law therefore applies. You may not recognize those rights but I do. Therefore it is understandable why I am pro-life and a Libertarian.
    No, the paperwork applies to the mother and at her will and her will alone. She can choose to not do any of those things, notify anyone.

    Your opinion is nice but it is not possible to treat both equally. So to support your position (you are welcome to it anyway, whether you can support it or not)...the state would end up responsible for the death or permanent disability of women that occurs during pregnancy or childbirth if against the will of the woman. The state chooses to risk the woman's life over the unborn (which also may not survive until birth). The risks cannot be predicted, otherwise thousands of women in the US would not die or narrowly miss death every year due to pregnancy, cb.

    It also forces the state to decide who to save when a woman needs chemo to cure her cancer when that chemo will kill the unborn. That is not equal. There needs to be laws to guide the state....which one to 'pick.'

    Again, it is a nice, feel-good belief but not viable in practice in the US. There can be no equal treatment under the law for born/unborn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #247
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Would they make up something to make it conform to their libertarian beliefs or just recognize that they were taking a position in opposition of their beliefs? ( would respect the 2nd)
    Both opinions that you listed are probably held. As I stated in my earlier post, libertarians don't support legalizing murder, so they're not 100% libertarian themselves; that would be anarcho-capitalism. If they believe in banning murder, and they also believe a fetus is a person, they could logically support banning abortion under libertarian principles. However, libertarians are not 100% libertarian themselves, if that makes sense, (not wanting to legalize murder or traditional thievery) so they could also recognize that abortion is one of the few exceptions where they want the government to intervene.

  8. #248
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Both opinions that you listed are probably held. As I stated in my earlier post, libertarians don't support legalizing murder, so they're not 100% libertarian themselves; that would be anarcho-capitalism. If they believe in banning murder, and they also believe a fetus is a person, they could logically support banning abortion under libertarian principles. However, libertarians are not 100% libertarian themselves, if that makes sense, (not wanting to legalize murder or traditional thievery) so they could also recognize that abortion is one of the few exceptions where they want the government to intervene.
    nobody, not one person, is 100% any ideology.

    you're a self professed progressive... are you 100% authoritarian?

  9. #249
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    nobody, not one person, is 100% any ideology.
    This is true, although some people who are extremely partisan attempt to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    you're a self professed progressive... are you 100% authoritarian?
    Progressive isn't the best word to describe myself. It was just the closest available option. I am an advocate of social democracy, hence my username. But what exactly makes you think I'm an authoritarian? Over 90% of the time, I consider myself anti-authoritarian, unless you consider my economic beliefs of steeply progressive tax rates and an expansive welfare state to be authoritarian.

  10. #250
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    As for the unborn....they clearly have no rights....
    You should not ignorantly and arrogantly act as if your OPINION is in any way "clear" fact.

    There is nothing inherent to Libertarian principle that would determine whether or not a Libertarian would feel that an unborn chlid is vested with rights or not.

    And if he is, there is PLENTY of evidence that a Libertarian can feel it's reasonable to infringe upon someone's rights in the protecting of rights for those who are unable to protect them themselves.

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