View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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    41 74.55%
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    5 9.09%
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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #231
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So let me get this straight. You straight up lie saying you never said libertarians can't keep consistent with their beliefs and be pro-life, and I give you a few quotes where you did, and instead of addressing this you freak out about text sizing and my use of the word comfort? (I've used the word comfort for the past 3 posts, and I never said you did.)

    You do realize that on the internet you can't determine one's emotional state, right? Whatever, let's just end this, you seem to be in misdirection dodge mode right now anyway.



    Posting quotes where you lied is being rabid? You really should look up that word.
    So you are choosing to attack my phrasing in retreat from the issue of value and rights for the unborn, which is what that opinion, for Libertarian or anyone else, seems to base their position on?

    M'k.

    And you are quoting my opinion on Libertarians where *my opinion* of Libertarians is that recognizing rights for the unborn does not conform to that platform. I still disagree that it does but obviously others DO choose to take that position.

    There was no lying. This is actually the focus of the entire thread, answering the OP's question
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #232
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    tell me how you believe jesus was libertarian
    It's a joke. It points out the difference between charity and taxation.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  3. #233
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes it is. And the born are entitled to it. If you believe the unborn are as well, then when the state protects those rights, they will infringe on the born's right to life. There is no quarantee of surviving birth...or pregnancy or childbirth. The state does not have that power. That is why the individual should have the choice to assume those risks...not the state.
    Those are valid opinions but they aren't necessarily libertarian.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  4. #234
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And they are right?
    Not all of them, but many are right IMHO. Banning slavery fits that description.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  5. #235
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Even if someone says an adult is an individual who has rights and liberties, that's still 100% subjective.
    Indeed it is, and as Boomers continue to geezer out, this is going to be argued, I predict, in horrifying ways.

  6. #236
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Those are valid opinions but they aren't necessarily libertarian.
    It seems there isnt agreement on that here in the thread focused on that discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #237
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It seems there isnt agreement on that here in the thread focused on that discussion.
    Are you trying to argue in favor of the pro-choice position, prove that pro-life libertarians are hypocrites, or something else?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  8. #238
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Are you trying to argue in favor of the pro-choice position, prove that pro-life libertarians are hypocrites, or something else?
    I have no interest in proving anything about Libertarians, I thought the thread was about exploring their views on abortion within that platform?

    That is the answer to what you quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #239
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    You're confusing libertarianism with anarchism. Libertarianism firmly believes in using the force of law to protect rights.
    Not confused at all. I am a strong advocate of using force of law to allow people to do as they wish and allow whom they wish onto all their private property even if it is a business. And I will be the first one there protesting said business when they do discriminate for whatever reason. Except shoplifting....they can discriminate against the shoplifter.

    The whole problem with the abortion issue is determining the factor(s) that makes a human a "higher life form" and not just another animal. When are these factor obtained? Are the present even before the joining of the egg and sperm? We, in all honesty, do not know. Many of us, through our faith and religion, believe that we have an answer. Even those who are atheist run both ways on the topic. Whatever it is that makes us believe as a race that killing one another in cold blood should be a crime, and that using one another as a food source is that factor(s) that we need to determine and when it occurs. We all seem to instinctively attribute this to a newborn and continue that status throughout the lifespan of the individual. But not so much to a ZEF. This is less common.

    If I don't find my evidence concrete enough and empirical enough, then I don't have that right to force my belief by law onto another. I simply can't prove that a ZEF is the equivalent of a newborn. So as such my libertarian sensibilities tell me that I can try to convince people to believe as I do and act accordingly, but I cannot remove the right of the mother to end her pregnancy. Which BTW is her only right in the matter. She doesn't actually have the right to an abortion per se'. Abortion happens to be the only safe (relatively speaking) method available to her. That's a whole other thread though.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Even if someone says an adult is an individual who has rights and liberties, that's still 100% subjective.
    We can go on to say that humans having any real existence outside of my highly vivid imagination is 100% subjective. How existential do you want to get? Adult hood is subjective. Not everyone achieves it at the same time. So 18 to be an adult is a legal fiction. In the end we have to start from one of two premises: society trumps individualism, or individualism trumps society. Any rights there after are dependent upon which premise you choose.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  10. #240
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Not confused at all. I am a strong advocate of using force of law to allow people to do as they wish and allow whom they wish onto all their private property even if it is a business. And I will be the first one there protesting said business when they do discriminate for whatever reason. Except shoplifting....they can discriminate against the shoplifter.

    The whole problem with the abortion issue is determining the factor(s) that makes a human a "higher life form" and not just another animal. When are these factor obtained? Are the present even before the joining of the egg and sperm? We, in all honesty, do not know. Many of us, through our faith and religion, believe that we have an answer. Even those who are atheist run both ways on the topic. Whatever it is that makes us believe as a race that killing one another in cold blood should be a crime, and that using one another as a food source is that factor(s) that we need to determine and when it occurs. We all seem to instinctively attribute this to a newborn and continue that status throughout the lifespan of the individual. But not so much to a ZEF. This is less common.

    If I don't find my evidence concrete enough and empirical enough, then I don't have that right to force my belief by law onto another. I simply can't prove that a ZEF is the equivalent of a newborn. So as such my libertarian sensibilities tell me that I can try to convince people to believe as I do and act accordingly, but I cannot remove the right of the mother to end her pregnancy. Which BTW is her only right in the matter. She doesn't actually have the right to an abortion per se'. Abortion happens to be the only safe (relatively speaking) method available to her. That's a whole other thread though.



    We can go on to say that humans having any real existence outside of my highly vivid imagination is 100% subjective. How existential do you want to get? Adult hood is subjective. Not everyone achieves it at the same time. So 18 to be an adult is a legal fiction. In the end we have to start from one of two premises: society trumps individualism, or individualism trumps society. Any rights there after are dependent upon which premise you choose.
    There is no concrete or empirical evidence to show that the government should protect anyone's rights. It's impossible to prove that a 30 year old is equivalent to a 40 year old.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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