View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #211
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I wasnt trying to debate you, it was a comment supporting why it seems unLibertarian to object to abortion for other people. The points I made are directly related to making abortion illegal...but often people's knee-jerk reactions are all about 'the baby!' and not the entire big picture.
    Sorry, can't help you. I don't have those knee jerk reactions and I never said anything about the legality of abortion, nor do I have ANY interest in discussing that, in this thread or anywhere else.

  2. #212
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    You are asking me 'when?' My opinion is until viability...when the fetus can live outside the mother. Up until that time, no one can act on the fetus (against her will) without grossly infringning on her rights. Including her own life.

    And philosophically it comes down this: which do you value you more? The unborn or the born?

    Because in practice you cannot afford both equal rights and then treat each equally. For the unborn to be entitled to the right to life and a potential future, you would be demanding the woman's rights to the same are secondary. SHe becomes (once again) a 2nd class citizen in society.
    No, the question is not whom I value more, it's which right I value more. You for some reason think that a woman's "right" to delay her decision as long as she wants and to be comfortable trumps someone else's right to life. We're not comparing life to life here, we're comparing comfort to life. If it were life to life I'd say the woman every single time.

    Neither of us will be changing our minds based on this conversation, but the only thing I really want to get across is that you do NOT speak for all Libertarians, and it is NOT inconsistent with Libertarian principles to value the life of a child over the comfort of a woman.

    (And on a side note, it doesn't really make sense to base so much of your argument on what the law currently is. We're debating what it should be; we already know what it is.)
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  3. #213
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    You are asking me 'when?' My opinion is until viability...when the fetus can live outside the mother. Up until that time, no one can act on the fetus (against her will) without grossly infringning on her rights. Including her own life.
    If your argument is that the woman has a right to her body and thus abortion is permissible then the argument you just presented is absurd and nonsensical. You can't say on one hand that she has a right to abort because of the right to her body, and on the other, put a time limit on it. Sorry, but you position just doesn't make a lick of sense.

    And philosophically it comes down this: which do you value you more? The unborn or the born?
    Actually, that is far too simple. For me, I value both equally, but when it comes to determining the legally of it I look at what is required of the woman to maintain the life of the unborn. My reason for not outlawing it is not that I don't value the unborn or that somehow I value them less, but that the consequence of outlawing it is not something I can find myself in agreement with.

  4. #214
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    No, the question is not whom I value more, it's which right I value more. You for some reason think that a woman's "right" to delay her decision as long as she wants and to be comfortable trumps someone else's right to life. We're not comparing life to life here, we're comparing comfort to life. If it were life to life I'd say the woman every single time.

    Neither of us will be changing our minds based on this conversation, but the only thing I really want to get across is that you do NOT speak for all Libertarians, and it is NOT inconsistent with Libertarian principles to value the life of a child over the comfort of a woman.

    (And on a side note, it doesn't really make sense to base so much of your argument on what the law currently is. We're debating what it should be; we already know what it is.)

    I never said I spoke for all Libertarians...the entire thread is basically how no one can.

    I gave you MY opinion and supported it. And you just implied that the life of the unborn is more important than the right to life of the mother. You cannot ensure the pregnancy nor childbirth will not kill the woman....thousands die or nearly die every year....obviously it is not predictable or preventable. NO ONE should have the right to demand a woman take that risk if she does not want to. It's not even rare...we all probably know women who died from either...I know of 2.

    I also disagree that 'life' is more important than 'liberty' and the 'pursuit of happiness.' That is not a fact and not a given at all, 'philosophically.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #215
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Would they make up something to make it conform to their libertarian beliefs or just recognize that they were taking a position in opposition of their beliefs? ( would respect the 2nd)
    Neither position (pro-life or pro-choice) opposes the libertarian philosophy.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  6. #216
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    I fail to see what one has to do with the other. My own distaste for abortion doesn't give me the right to impose my will on others.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  7. #217
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have not seen that right elevated above liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Is it in the Constitution? Somewhere else in US legal code?

    Because not everyone agrees with that. So I'd want to see legal support and even then I guess people could disagree personally on what is most important to them.
    Life is a basic right, just like freedom of speech, only more basic. Some people don't want to accept it but there are an infinite number of situations where rights butt up against each other.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  8. #218
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Laws controlling and enforcing illegal abortion mean bigger govt. and a huge intrusion into the privacy of Americans.
    Many laws fit that description.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  9. #219
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I never said I spoke for all Libertarians...the entire thread is basically how no one can.

    I gave you MY opinion and supported it. And you just implied that the life of the unborn is more important than the right to life of the mother. You cannot ensure the pregnancy nor childbirth will not kill the woman....thousands die or nearly die every year....obviously it is not predictable or preventable. NO ONE should have the right to demand a woman take that risk if she does not want to. It's not even rare...we all probably know women who died from either...I know of 2.

    I also disagree that 'life' is more important than 'liberty' and the 'pursuit of happiness.' That is not a fact and not a given at all, 'philosophically.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The fetus has no rights...that's already a fact.

    It is human, but that is not a person and only persons have rights.

    So the libertarian would have to be pro-choice *if* conforming to their political beliefs.

    But no one says people have to 100% conform to their political beliefs....
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Would they make up something to make it conform to their libertarian beliefs or just recognize that they were taking a position in opposition of their beliefs? ( would respect the 2nd)
    Let's not get childish, you know what you said. Valuing the right to life over the right to comfort is not anti-libertarian. Is it not anti-libertarian to force women to take care of their born children? How dare we demand that they give their children food, water, and medical care. It's like we're making mothers 2nd class citizens and violating their right to their pursuit of happiness.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  10. #220
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    How do Libertarians justify that the unborn have rights?
    with our core beliefs, the same way that we justify everyone else's rights
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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