View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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    41 74.55%
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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #201
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    That's great, but the poll question wasn't about laws and privacy voilations. It was about Libertarians being pro-life versus pro-choice. I'd suggest you read the posts in this thread from Libertarians (including myself) before you try to debate me on an issue on which I'm not holding an opposing view from you. It's a waste of both of our times.
    I wasnt trying to debate you, it was a comment supporting why it seems unLibertarian to object to abortion for other people. The points I made are directly related to making abortion illegal...but often people's knee-jerk reactions are all about 'the baby!' and not the entire big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #202
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    The entire pro-life/pro-choice debate comes down to a matter of time lines. It comes down to when that individual beliefs life begins. Do I have to accept a woman having a third trimester abortion to be Libertarian to you? To what week in a pregnancy must a Libertarian support abortion in order to fit your narrow definition of libertarianism? 17th? 22nd?

    You don't speak for all libertarians. Defining when life begins and when it doesn't isn't an inherent feature of libertarianism. You've taken the single most debated topic in the Libertarian community and declared your view as the only valid one.


    Rape and murder aren't banned by the constitution so I guess that's cool too right?

    We know what the current legal situation is, but that's not the debate. The debate is what the legal situation SHOULD be.

    See the bold? Of course you have to accept it. The wording itself (your own wording) should make it very clear that it's not up to you to accept or decide what a woman does with her body. A Libertarian should certainly respect a person's sovereignty over their own body. As for the unborn....they clearly have no rights....there is no way to accord them any rights that would not grossly infringe on a woman's inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So of course, it's up to her alone.

    As for the second part, that's just silly. Rape and murder clearly infringe on the 3 inalienable rights I just listed. That statement is just like saying, "I have no argument!"

    Yes, people do have different opinions on the SCOTUS decision that examined and denied personhood and rights to the unborn. I respect people that would CHOOSE not to have abortions. It's when they would demand, believing they have the right to do so, that others take the risks of pregnancy and childbirth against their will that I object to.

    Choice seems like a reasonable position for Libertarians. Obviously from the posts in this thread, not everyone agrees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #203
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    See the bold? Of course you have to accept it. The wording itself (your own wording) should make it very clear that it's not up to you to accept or decide what a woman does with her body. A Libertarian should certainly respect a person's sovereignty over their own body. As for the unborn....they clearly have no rights....there is no way to accord them any rights that would not grossly infringe on a woman's inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So of course, it's up to her alone.

    As for the second part, that's just silly. Rape and murder clearly infringe on the 3 inalienable rights I just listed. That statement is just like saying, "I have no argument!"

    Yes, people do have different opinions on the SCOTUS decision that examined and denied personhood and rights to the unborn. I respect people that would CHOOSE not to have abortions. It's when they would demand, believing they have the right to do so, that others take the risks of pregnancy and childbirth against their will that I object to.

    Choice seems like a reasonable position for Libertarians. Obviously from the posts in this thread, not everyone agrees.
    I asked you a question. To what week do I have to support abortion for you to consider me a libertarian? Am I understanding it correctly that we all should support the right for a woman to abort up to and including on delivery day otherwise we're all inconsistent with libertarian principles?

    The unborn do not have legal rights (in this country), but that does not mean that they don't deserve rights or life. It's a philosophical question, not a legal one. Legality can change with the movement of a pen. There is nothing special about being pushed through a vagina that suddenly kickstarts life. The child is obviously alive at some point before delivery day, and when that point is is up for debate. Most Americans (and libertarians) do not support 3rd trimester elective abortions. Your attitude seems to be that there should be no restrictions for any reason because her right to delay her decision as long as she wants is obviously more important than a human being's right to life. Anyone who disagrees with you? => NOT LIBERTARIAN
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Libertarians believe in individual rights and some like me, believe the unborn have just as many rights and perhaps more because they cannot stand up for themselves and argue for their rights. Because they do not have a voice does not mean they do not have rights like anyone else.
    Voice isnt a criteria for being a person and having rights.

    Generally and currently, the law says 'being born.' According rights to the unborn would enable the govt to grossly infringe on the born's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So then Libertarians, like anyone else, need to examine how they value the unborn and the born. In practice, they cannot be treated equally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #205
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The fetus has no rights...that's already a fact.
    You really don't know much about libertarianism, do you? Libertarians don't just look at the law and determine rights according to it. Hell, no one really does.

    It is human, but that is not a person and only persons have rights.
    The term person is a legal construct and has already been altered since the countries founding. You aren't going to get anywhere with libertarians bringing it up.

  6. #206
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Voice isnt a criteria for being a person and having rights.

    Generally and currently, the law says 'being born.' According rights to the unborn would enable the govt to grossly infringe on the born's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So then Libertarians, like anyone else, need to examine how they value the unborn and the born. In practice, they cannot be treated equally.
    Being born doesn't give the individual (the baby in this case) any more voice than if it was still in the womb. The unborn in my view of Libertarian ideology has just as many rights as the born and as I've already stated. If an individuals rights cannot be treated equally, the law then fails, or it's discriminatory and should be overturned.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #207
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I asked you a question. To what week do I have to support abortion for you to consider me a libertarian? Am I understanding it correctly that we all should support the right for a woman to abort up to and including on delivery day otherwise we're all inconsistent with libertarian principles?

    The unborn do not have legal rights (in this country), but that does not mean that they don't deserve rights or life. It's a philosophical question, not a legal one. Legality can change with the movement of a pen. There is nothing special about being pushed through a vagina that suddenly kickstarts life. The child is obviously alive at some point before delivery day, and when that point is is up for debate. Most Americans (and libertarians) do not support 3rd trimester elective abortions. Your attitude seems to be that there should be no restrictions for any reason because her right to delay her decision as long as she wants is obviously more important than a human being's right to life. Anyone who disagrees with you? => NOT LIBERTARIAN
    You are asking me 'when?' My opinion is until viability...when the fetus can live outside the mother. Up until that time, no one can act on the fetus (against her will) without grossly infringning on her rights. Including her own life.

    And philosophically it comes down this: which do you value you more? The unborn or the born?

    Because in practice you cannot afford both equal rights and then treat each equally. For the unborn to be entitled to the right to life and a potential future, you would be demanding the woman's rights to the same are secondary. SHe becomes (once again) a 2nd class citizen in society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #208
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Being born doesn't give the individual (the baby in this case) any more voice than if it was still in the womb. The unborn in my view of Libertarian ideology has just as many rights as the born and as I've already stated. If an individuals rights cannot be treated equally, the law then fails, or it's discriminatory and should be overturned.
    They cannot be treated equally, so you are avoiding that point.

    And of course the born baby has more 'voice' once born. It immediately makes demands on society...crying, demanding to be fed, demanding attention.

    THe born can individually act on society and be acted on by society. The unborn cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #209
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I wasnt trying to debate you, it was a comment supporting why it seems unLibertarian to object to abortion for other people.
    It is exactly as "unlibertarian" to object to abortion as it is to object to theft or rape or the homicide of a born human.

    Libertarian is not synonymous with anarchist.

  10. #210
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They cannot be treated equally, so you are avoiding that point.
    That "point" is bull****. Just because you don't want to treat humans equally doesn't make it impossible.

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