View Poll Results: Can a libertarian be pro life?

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  • Yes

    41 74.55%
  • No

    5 9.09%
  • Libertarian Leans Right is just code for Republican

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Thread: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

  1. #161
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    his post is the same as mine, using different words
    She's a "she".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #162
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager1 View Post
    I just don't understand how Libertarians reconcile their beliefs on abortion esp on this site. I see a lot of Libertarian leans right. When Libertarians talk about abortion on here a lot of them use the same emotional appeals as my far left ideological cousins use on gun control.
    If you honestly do not understand, then a brief synopsis:

    Libertarians are not anarchists - they believe that the government exists to defend our rights. Including our rights to life, liberty, and property. The real question in the abortion topic, then, is not whether or not it is right for government to constrain a womans (or anyones') choice - but when it is appropriate to do so. I would constrain, for example, a woman's choice to steal from me, or a mans' choice to rape my wife, and still be completely within the boundaries of libertarian principles because I am then using government to protect my right to property, my wifes' right to ownership of her own body, etc. So, if an unborn child is not a child, then the libertarian must (if he or she is to be true to their principles) accept that government does not have any right to interfere with the womans' freedom of action. But if an unborn child is a child, then the libertarian must require that government defend its' right to life, and constrain the choices of those who would abuse those rights. Ron and Rand Paul, for example, are two notable Libertarian leaders who hold this position.


    As for those who try to split the baby, and say that they are personally against abortion, but not against it's banning - that is (imo) an untenable position. It's like saying (from the perspective that an unborn child is a child) that you are personally against slavery or child-rape, but don't think that the government should have a hand in reducing that kind of behavior.
    Last edited by cpwill; 06-18-14 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #163
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    That's a major assumption.
    l read these books many times and couldnt find any clue that proves god was libertarian capitalist
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  4. #164
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The fetus has no rights...that's already a fact.

    It is human, but that is not a person and only persons have rights.

    So the libertarian would have to be pro-choice *if* conforming to their political beliefs.

    But no one says people have to 100% conform to their political beliefs....
    The entire pro-life/pro-choice debate comes down to a matter of time lines. It comes down to when that individual beliefs life begins. Do I have to accept a woman having a third trimester abortion to be Libertarian to you? To what week in a pregnancy must a Libertarian support abortion in order to fit your narrow definition of libertarianism? 17th? 22nd?

    You don't speak for all libertarians. Defining when life begins and when it doesn't isn't an inherent feature of libertarianism. You've taken the single most debated topic in the Libertarian community and declared your view as the only valid one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have not seen that right elevated above liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Is it in the Constitution? Somewhere else in US legal code?

    Because not everyone agrees with that. So I'd want to see legal support and even then I guess people could disagree personally on what is most important to them.
    Rape and murder aren't banned by the constitution so I guess that's cool too right?

    We know what the current legal situation is, but that's not the debate. The debate is what the legal situation SHOULD be.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 06-18-14 at 07:54 AM.
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    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  5. #165
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    If that liberterian proves that abortion is murder - yes.

  6. #166
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Laws controlling and enforcing illegal abortion mean bigger govt. and a huge intrusion into the privacy of Americans.
    That's great, but the poll question wasn't about laws and privacy voilations. It was about Libertarians being pro-life versus pro-choice. I'd suggest you read the posts in this thread from Libertarians (including myself) before you try to debate me on an issue on which I'm not holding an opposing view from you. It's a waste of both of our times.

  7. #167
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If you honestly do not understand, then a brief synopsis:

    Libertarians are not anarchists - they believe that the government exists to defend our rights. Including our rights to life, liberty, and property. The real question in the abortion topic, then, is not whether or not it is right for government to constrain a womans (or anyones') choice - but when it is appropriate to do so. I would constrain, for example, a woman's choice to steal from me, or a mans' choice to rape my wife, and still be completely within the boundaries of libertarian principles because I am then using government to protect my right to property, my wifes' right to ownership of her own body, etc. So, if an unborn child is not a child, then the libertarian must (if he or she is to be true to their principles) accept that government does not have any right to interfere with the womans' freedom of action. But if an unborn child is a child, then the libertarian must require that government defend its' right to life, and constrain the choices of those who would abuse those rights. Ron and Rand Paul, for example, are two notable Libertarian leaders who hold this position.


    As for those who try to split the baby, and say that they are personally against abortion, but not against it's banning - that is (imo) an untenable position. It's like saying (from the perspective that an unborn child is a child) that you are personally against slavery or child-rape, but don't think that the government should have a hand in reducing that kind of behavior.
    Excellent post.

  8. #168
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I have never ever heard anyone tell people (Americans) that they cant have religious views. The issue is when the religious try to impose those beliefs on other people or into laws.

    If you support pro-choice, you are fully able to personally practice your own religious beliefs and allow others to do the same. If you are pro-life (and religious) then you support forcing your religious beliefs on others...which we all know is wrong and unAmerican.
    See my previous post. Why are you wasting your time posting all of this to me? Please move on to someone who has a different opinion on abortion than you do.

  9. #169
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I didn't say a Libertarian can't be religious. I said a Libertarian would never tell another person what he should believe. Your poll is about what people believe (pro-life verus pro-choice). Libertarians can be one or the other, and no other Libertarian would say one view is wrong because he/she has a different one.
    Not exactly. I will still tell you that abortion is wrong. I simply won't look to the law to enforce that belief. Being libertarian doesn't mean that you stop trying to correct that which you feel is wrong. It means that you use social pressure to do it not force of law. Protests, education programs, picketing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Libertarians believe in boldly sovereignty and are opposed to treating people like property, so yes Libertarians must by definition be pro-life. A pro-choice Libertarian isn't a Libertarian at all, just a lier and a hypocrite.
    Nice try, no go. The belief of when a ZEF becomes a person ranges greatly even among conservatives yet alone libertarians. There really is no argument about after the birth. It's prior to the birth that the issue arises, usually in regards to viability. If you don't believe that a ZEF qualifies as a seperate sentient being, at least until after birth, then you are wholly in line with the concept of bodily (I'm pretty sure that is the word you intended) sovereignty on the part of the woman because the ZEF is not an individual to have that same sovereignty. There are indeed libertarians who believe that the ZEF is an individual and thus entitled to the same protections as those already born. They would also be well within the libertarian mindset by being anti-abortion politically. Then you have those who believe such, myself and Lizzie for example, who recognize that our beliefs come from a place that does not have enough empirical evidence to allow us to force the view on others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No, because Liberal is a lean, not a party.
    Libertarian is both a lean and a party. Two separate things that use the same word. Sort of like fag. A fag is both a cigarette and a homosexual. Two separate things that use the same word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Then you're pro choice on the topic of eyelid piercings. Nothing wrong with that. Im pro choice on tattoos while I don't want one for myself; that means im pro choice, not pro clear skin.
    There is a major difference here. Most people who are pro-life personally are still against abortions overall, even by other people. They may take other actions such as protests to get the practice stopped. They just don't believe in the force of law thus making them pro-choice politically. You example is misleading in that you do not (I am guessing by your words) otherwise try to get people to not get tattoos. You don't feel that tattoos are wrong, just wrong for you. Your example would have worked if you honestly felt that no one should get a tattoo, even while still allowing them to make that choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    there wasnt any taxation during jesus's time.what else do you expect him to advise people to do to share the wealth ?

    l claim he was social democrat.
    Um yes there was. The Bible even mentions them. IIRC, Zachia (sp?) the man who climbed the fig tree to see Jesus was a tax collector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    modern times make " charity " a responsilibity of taxation
    Which has nothing to do with your statement that there was no taxation in Jesus' time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    "voyager likes this"

    "haymarket likes this"



    Obvious bait thread is obvious.
    You don't have to agree with someone's point to like the point that they made or to like that they worded their argument well. Obvious bait post is obvious.
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  10. #170
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    Re: Can a Libertarian be Pro Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Not exactly. I will still tell you that abortion is wrong. I simply won't look to the law to enforce that belief. Being libertarian doesn't mean that you stop trying to correct that which you feel is wrong. It means that you use social pressure to do it not force of law. Protests, education programs, picketing, etc.
    You think abortion is wrong. I respect that. I never mentioned the law. The poll never asked if Libertarians who are anti-abortion should simply roll over and play dead. It asked if a Libertarian can be pro-life or not. My answer was yes, a Libertarian can be pro-life and a Libertarian can also be pro-choice.

    I also never suggested that someone who is anti-abortion shouldn't protest, picket, etc. I also never said that I would tell you that your position is wrong.

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