View Poll Results: Who is MOST to blame for the problems of African Americans?

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Thread: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

  1. #381
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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Since you decided to skip my prior response to you on the reasons why women are choosing not to marry, you missed the point. Further, your argument is only showing that large numbers of households require 2 incomes to avoid poverty, which again points to the bigger issue, the lack of wage gains for the lowest quintile.



    It is even worse for blacks and hispanic households.
    Seems to me you're being a bit inconsistent. Didn't you say above that one reason for fewer marriages was the ease of making a living for women?

    And, yes, you do have a point that it is more difficult to earn a living than it used to be, especially for entry level workers.

    And, if it takes two incomes to support a household, wouldn't that encourage people to marry and combine incomes?

    Unless, of course, there is an easier way than working for a living, especially for single moms.
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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Increased income for women: Maybe, if the only reason for them to marry is to have a breadwinner.
    It's not the only reason but it is an important factor. If you reduce the dependency that encourages the behavior, you reduce the behavior

    Increased incarceration: Men in jail aren't making babies generally.
    Most people who go to jail don't spend their entire lives in jail Besides, even if they did that would be mean fewer marry-able men around. That would mean fewer marriages

    Interracial marriage is much more common and accepted than it once was, and anyway, what goes for poor blacks goes for poor whites as well.

    I'm not so sure that the financial help available to single mothers can be dismissed as a factor, perhaps a major factor.
    Interracial marriage is much more common but I didn't refer to interracial marriage in general. I spoke specifically of the reluctance of many white men to marry black women which results in there being fewer men available for black women to marry.

    And I didn't dismiss govt assistance as a factor. I dismissed the idea that is the only factor, or even just the primary factor, behind the increase in unwed mothers in the black population. After all, the phenomena is occurring throughout the population and not just those who are on public assistance.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #383
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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    So please, provide proof for your claim that many black people have given up on trying to succeed.
    You don't consider the mass refusal of so many members of the black community to practice safe sex, marry before having children, finish high school, or integrate into mainstream American culture to be a sign of exactly that?

    On what grounds?

    No one is forcing African Americans to indulge in these self-destructive behaviors. They are doing so of their own free will, at the highest rates of any ethnic group in the United States. Based upon outcomes, it would appear that these decisions have done much to hold back the advancement of the Black Community as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Just like Obvious Child, whose post you liked previously, you guys cannot bring forth anything to document your claims. I already showed him that it was not "crack" that caused education drop-offs for Blacks:



    And yet when it comes to wages, Blacks have NOT been "on their way"....or for that matter White women:



    So just what are you basing your argument on?
    Quite frankly, just what you are basing your arguments on is the better question here.

    Your charts show exactly what I have been talking about. Black high school graduation rates (for males, anyway) were on par with whites at the beginning of the 1970s, and climbing rapidly. They took a nose-diving going into the 1980s, and still have not yet fully recovered.

    You don't think this has played a major role in the Black Community's "failure to thrive?"

    Black wages would also seem to be more or less on par with those of everyone else, and your claim concerning white women is simply bizarre, as the chart blatantly contradicts your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    :

    Here is what you responded to with information from the 1890s:

    This is a fact:
    Of what relevance?

    The Irish faced quite heavy discrimination in the United States as well as Ireland itself. They made due just fine.

    So in short, 3 generations after the Irish had started migrating into America, they already had politicians being put within reach of the presidency. How you can still claim that they were as... oppressed as blacks who wouldn't accomplish the same thing for.... 80 years is beyond me.
    Again, because the Irish, Italians, Jews, Chinese, and every other minority group in the United States made that happen. No one did it for them.

    The American political system has also been bringing "key" African American individuals into government for decades now. It has made little to no difference whatsoever in elevating the fortunes of the Black Community.

    As a matter of fact, in many regards, it has actually been counter-productive, as the most prominent black political leaders only seem to want to pander to populism and emphasize the idea of "black victim-hood" for the interests of the DNC, rather than enact meaningful change.

    Says who? The product of a group who was never marginalized for 300 years in America?
    Again, events three hundred years ago bears what relevance to you today?

    It gives you something to bitch about, and an excuse to blame your problems on, nothing more.

    Get over it.

    Proof that this was universal, and not something which affected many other minority groups as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Part 2:

    Now you're just being dishonest:

    Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here are excerpts of Jim Crow laws:

    Snip Segregation legal Jargon -
    Did I ever deny that Segregation existed in Southern States? What's your point?

    Mention of Chinese and Hispanics? None outside of certain states with actual immigration from these groups. Stating that these laws were created to affect Chinese and Hispanics in some parts of the country - when the overwhelming majority of states which Jim Crow laws had no real immigration from these groups is downright dishonest. Jim Crow laws were created to keep blacks and whites separate.
    Well no ****, Sherlock. You can't very well discriminate against minority groups which aren't present.

    It doesn't change the fact that they were discriminated against, and have managed to overcome it where blacks have not.

    Why do you think that is?

    They don't have 300 years of oppression under their belt.
    No, they only had roughly 150.

    It doesn't change the fact that they managed to overcome it.

    They don't seem to like the British though and kept asking for Hong Kong back for a while
    Meaning???

    Your own charts state that black poverty was twice what it was for whites in the 1950s and then established that it has stayed at the same ratio all the way through to the 2010s. So how exactly has it backslid or gotten worse? Again, I don't think you know how to read your charts
    My charts show black poverty decreasing by roughly half between 1950 and 1970, only to then plateau and remain more or less stable (and the highest of any ethnic group in the country) from the mid-1970s onward.

    Again, what has changed between that era and now? "Racism" and institutional bias certainly didn't get any worse. To the contrary, they have both improved.

    The major things which have changed are that marriage has become virtually non-existent in the black community, where illegitimacy and welfare dependency have become endemic, and the idea of "black victim-hood" has been adopted as infallible political dogma excusing African Americans from seeking their own advancement.

    I'm sorry, but the outcomes brought about by this state of affairs are self-evident. It is simply a toxic way of doing things.

    If 40% of blacks were poor in 1968 and now 27% of them are poor, doesn't that mean there was a drop of over 25% in poverty?
    No, roughly 30% to 32% of blacks were poor in 1968, 35% or more in the mid 1980s, and 27% today, with the number again climbing. They have consistently had the highest poverty rates in the country for the entire period of time detailed as well, in spite of making exceptionally strong gains prior to the 1970s.



    Of course they did:

    The 1930s: When Irish Catholics Changed America | Irish America

    They were provided better institutions:

    Brought into administrations:

    Made orators:

    Made into positive figures by the media:

    So yes, the Irish certainly got a hand from American society.
    By this logic, African Americans have received exactly the same "help" in spades. As a matter of fact, there is more money being spent to combat black poverty, and more black people in positions of power and influence, now than at any other point in our nation's history.

    Why then, do they continue to founder?

    When will you drop the excuses and simply face facts here?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-15-14 at 02:29 AM.

  4. #384
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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    You don't consider the mass refusal of so many members of the black community to practice safe sex, marry before having children, finish high school, or integrate into mainstream American culture to be a sign of exactly that?

    On what grounds?
    No I don't on the grounds that none of those things are evidence that they have stopped trying to succeed. And the last one isn't even happening.

    No one is forcing African Americans to indulge in these self-destructive behaviors. They are doing so of their own free will, at the highest rates of any ethnic group in the United States. Based upon outcomes, it would appear that these decisions have done much to hold back the advancement of the Black Community as a whole.
    Based on outcomes, it appears that young adults have given up on trying to succeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No I don't on the grounds that none of those things are evidence that they have stopped trying to succeed.
    Bailing on education in favor of impoverished single motherhood and objectively risky behaviors is not a sign of turning one's back on the essential building blocks of life necessary to succeed in our society?

    In what universe?

    And the last one isn't even happening.
    I'll believe that the moment I stop hearing blacks complain about "Uncle Toms" and African Americans who choose to follow the norms of "white" culture.

    Based on outcomes, it appears that young adults have given up on trying to succeed.
    Then you rescind your earlier claim that the current generation of young Americans are "better behaved" than their predecessors where behaviors which limit success are concerned?

    Which is it, Sangha?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-15-14 at 02:29 AM.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Seems to me you're being a bit inconsistent. Didn't you say above that one reason for fewer marriages was the ease of making a living for women?
    Seems you are conflating earnings for women prior to 1960 and the lack of wage gains after 1980.

    And, yes, you do have a point that it is more difficult to earn a living than it used to be, especially for entry level workers.
    Ah, so you do see what I said...so no inconsistency.

    And, if it takes two incomes to support a household, wouldn't that encourage people to marry and combine incomes?
    Again, still having a hard time handling the idea that living alone is easier for women now....but that low-mid wage gains have dropped off. Marriage is not a requirement for sharing of income.

    Unless, of course, there is an easier way than working for a living, especially for single moms.
    Gee, if you want I can show that the average TANF payment has dropped way below the peak of AFDC, and you don't get EITC without employment. The majority receiving SNAP/TANF are working....part time....at multiple jobs. But keep playing the Welfare Queen card, it looks good.
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    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Bailing on education in favor of impoverished single motherhood and objectively risky behaviors is not a sign of turning one's back on the essential building blocks of life necessary to succeed in our society.

    In what universe?
    In this one.


    I believe that the moment I stop hearing blacks complain about "Uncle Toms" and African Americans who choose to follow the norms of "white" culture.
    There you go again talking as if there is a clear separation between white and black culture when the two have always been entwined.

    And black people talk about Uncle Toms far less that white people talk about how black people talk about Uncle Toms. IME, black people are far more likely to criticize another black person for being too "ghetto" than they are to criticize one for being an Uncle Tom

    Then you rescind your earlier claim that the current generation of young Americans are "better behaved" than their predecessors where behaviors which limit success are concerned?

    Which is it, Sangha?
    Huh? I never said anything like "young Americans are "better behaved" than their predecessors where behaviors which limit success are concerned"
    Last edited by sangha; 06-15-14 at 02:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #388
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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post


    Quite frankly, just what you are basing your arguments on is the better question here.

    Your charts show exactly what I have been talking about. Black high school graduation rates (for males, anyway) were on par with whites at the beginning of the 1970s, and climbing rapidly. They took a nose-diving going into the 1980s, and still have not yet fully recovered.
    Oh noes....you did not look close enough, those are Hispanic men and women..too bad.

    You don't think this has played a major role in the Black Community's "failure to thrive?"
    I think it displays an inability to look properly.

    Black wages would also seem to be more or less on par with those of everyone else, and your claim concerning white women is simply bizarre, as the chart blatantly contradicts your claim.
    You are 2 for 2 on reading charts tonight, White women come in below Black males and just a bit above Black women.......all far below White males.

    PS....maybe the confusion started with your attempt to cluster respond.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 06-15-14 at 02:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    In this one.
    Clearly not.

    Are you arguing that pursuit of education, marriage before childrearing, and avoidance of risky sexual and personal behavior are not actions generally necessary to ensure favorable economic and social outcomes?

    If so, based upon what evidence?

    There you go again talking as if there is a clear separation between white and black culture when the two have always been entwined.
    There you go again trying to dismiss the very real differences which exist between Black and White culture in the United States.

    And black people talk about Uncle Toms far less that white people talk about how black people talk about Uncle Toms. IME, black people are far more likely to criticize another black person for being too "ghetto" than they are to criticize one for being an Uncle Tom
    Ahem...



    Huh? I never said anything like "young Americans are "better behaved" than their predecessors where behaviors which limit success are concerned"
    Don't lie, Sangha. Own up to your words.

    Did you not argue that young adults today were less likely to abuse alcohol, drugs, and fall into delinquency than previous generations?

    I know you did. I can provide sources, if you like.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Oh noes....you did not close enough, those are Hispanic men and women..too bad.

    I think it displays an inability to look properly.
    Then I question the validity of your source.

    Every other source we have available shows black high school graduation rates as being the lowest in the US, not those of Latinos.

    The Condition of Education - Elementary and Secondary Education - Student Effort, Persistence and Progress - Public High School Graduation Rates - Indicator May (2014)

    Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]-figure-coi-2-jpg

    You are 2 for 2 on reading charts tonight, White women come in below Black males and just a bit above Black women.......all far below White males.

    PS....maybe the confusion started with your attempt to cluster respond.
    Your chart shows wages for white women increasing by more than $5,000 a year (from less than 15k to more than 20k since 1970) while wages for white males have remained more or less steady in the 35k to 40k range, and have now actually dipped below $35,000 a year.

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