View Poll Results: Who is MOST to blame for the problems of African Americans?

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Thread: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Aside from saying that you didn't say it, you've said nothing that contradicts it
    I never claimed that "anyone's lack of success is entirely their own fault" in the first place, let alone that it was any kind of universal principle.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I never claimed that "anyone's lack of success is entirely their own fault" in the first place, let alone that it was any kind of universal principle.
    You said that success is something that people reach out and take. Therefore, if someone is not successful, it is because they did not reach out and take it.

    whose fault is it that they didn't reach out and take it? Someone elses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    they make the decision to make it happen for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You said that success is something that people reach out and take. Therefore, if someone is not successful, it is because they did not reach out and take it.

    whose fault is it that they didn't reach out and take it? Someone elses?
    If a person stops trying to be successful, then that is certainly their fault. To a certain extent, that's exactly what I think large portions of the modern black community are guilty of doing.

    They take poverty and social degradation as being not only foregone conclusions, but trappings of their "culture," so they do not even attempt to break the the mold which put them in that state of being in the first place.

    I never said that a person could not have certain things working against them in their attempt to rise above their circumstances. To the contrary, they might have several such factors working against their ambitions.

    It is simply their duty to overcome such difficulties as they arise. "Success" demands nothing less.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-14-14 at 02:01 AM.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    If a person stops trying to be successful, then that is certainly their fault. To a certain extent, that's exactly what I think large portions of the modern black community are guilty of doing.
    To a certain extent, I think your beliefs about black people are delusional
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Again, as an Irish American, I am a "victim" (by proxy, same as you) of much the same. Do you see me complaining?
    By proxy of whom? The British? Pretty sure the Irish got their own country and piggybacking on the riches of the United Kingdom as a reconciliation prize. But that is beside the point.

    You were never enslaved. You were never faced with segregation.As a matter of fact, roughly half of the country's blacks were never faced with segregation even when it was in effect.
    So how does that work? Do only half of the people in this country get excused for not having accomplished anything? Or do the other half get 3/5ths of an excuse because they were apparently orphaned away and didn't have to deal with the segregation and oppression? Lol.

    Because we made it happen.
    We? You didn't make anything happen in the same way that I was never oppressed. If your logic is to reason it's all within the individual. Or did the Irish suddenly stop being oppressed as a group of people to the point where the cultural and social oppression of the past was no longer an issue? Think about your answer very carefully now.

    They are already rising to overcome it, while African Americans continue to languish in poverty, and even backslide.
    Only that isn't true and you know it. There are more college educated black people today than ever in the history of this country. More blacks with HS diplomas than ever before. More black millionaires than ever before, more black CEOs than ever before. So yes, your argument doesn't really hold that much water. I'm just stating all of this before you go into the nonsense of the "BEFORE'EM BLACKS GOT THE CRA'64 PASSED!" argument.

    I'm sorry man, but if there's a problem here, it's not "the system." It's African Americans.

    A) Blacks only "built" the South.

    B) Every new immigrant group to enter the United States has had to sacrifice its original culture. That is, quite frankly, what "America" is all about.

    C) Plenty of other groups have faced that discrimination, and overcome it.

    The excuses will only carry you so far, I'm afraid.
    Your argument has watered down from confidence in the claim that only blacks themselves are to blame for their problems to skating on the premise that only half of blacks are to blame for their problems. As if poverty worked in vacuums where from one generation to the next all past oppressions went away. Only it didn't in the case of African-Americans. New forms of oppression were created. Hell, the Irish in America had to essentially leave Ireland and come to a land they'd settled for 100 years and would face little to no oppression so that they'd have a chance at making it.

    The point is...


    Leaving poverty doesn't work the way you think it works. It is a slow process which takes quite a few generations and social policy changes to overcome. The Irish who left Ireland got a break from British oppression for nearly 150 years. That's what allowed them to "become" something better. The Irish who stayed in Ireland didn't really come out of poverty until what? 20 years ago? If it hadn't been for the mismanagement of housing prices, it may still have been growing for all we know. However, what is certain is that the Irish economy suffered under the oppressive hand of the British to the point that it wasn't until the year 2000 that they managed to recover some sense of economic independence. Who is to blame for this? The Irish? Of course not. The oppression of the British? Sure. What the Irish had that blacks haven't until recently were representatives in all domains.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    To a certain extent, I think your beliefs about black people are delusional
    The statistics, their abyssal track record vis-a-vis every other minority group in the United States, and the state of contemporary black popular culture would all seem to indicate otherwise.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    What "problems"?


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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    By proxy of whom?
    Our ancestors, obviously. You are no more a "victim" of slavery or segregation than I am a victim of the potato famine or "Irish Need Not Apply" signs.

    Claiming otherwise is simply delusional.

    So how does that work? Do only half of the people in this country get excused for not having accomplished anything? Or do the other half get 3/5ths of an excuse because they were apparently orphaned away and didn't have to deal with the segregation and oppression? Lol.
    No one gets excused, because it was in the past, and therefore completely irrelevant to anything taking place today.

    I was simply pointing out that the extent of the discrimination against African Americans was no where near as complete as you were making it out to be. In the North and the West, anti-Irish and anti-black discrimination were probably on about equal terms.

    Or did the Irish suddenly stop being oppressed as a group of people to the point where the cultural and social oppression of the past was no longer an issue? Think about your answer very carefully now.
    Yup, because we established ourselves as a force to be reckoned with, while simultaneously integrating ourselves into the existing culture. It's the same way the Jews and any number of other, "discriminated against," and reviled groups have managed to make it big in American culture.

    Again, the black community was well on its way towards the same in many parts of the country prior to the 1970s.

    Only that isn't true and you know it. There are more college educated black people today than ever in the history of this country. More blacks with HS diplomas than ever before. More black millionaires than ever before, more black CEOs than ever before. So yes, your argument doesn't really hold that much water. I'm just stating all of this before you go into the nonsense of the "BEFORE'EM BLACKS GOT THE CRA'64 PASSED!" argument.
    Don't forget. You've also got a man in the White House.

    In any case, "good on them," I say. They are living proof that it is not in any sense "impossible" for African Americans to succeed in modern American society.

    If their lower class brethren would actually take note of this fact, and emulate their examples more frequently (as many successful African Americans have themselves suggested), instead of making heroes out of lowlife rappers and thugs, while denouncing more traditionally "successful" men and women as being white-washed "sellouts," the black community as a whole might very well be able to advance itself.

    Leaving poverty doesn't work the way you think it works. It is a slow process which takes quite a few generations and social policy changes to overcome.
    It has worked the way I described for literally every other minority group in the United States besides African Americans. They struggle for a while, each generation making it higher than the next, and then they finally make it to the Middle Class, and it is smooth sailing from there on out.

    African Americans were on that path for most of the Twentieth Century. However, in the last few decades, their success has stagnated, and even begun to backslide in many regards.

    The sad truth of the matter is that this state of affairs is largely due to certain counter-productive political ideas and social practices which have taken root in "Black Culture" in the last half-century. Excessive government dependency and the erosion of the family unit brought about welfare plays a major role, as does the idea of perpetual African American "victimhood" preached by political pundits and ideologues attempting to use the African American community to their own ends.

    No one is denying that the African American community has historically had a rough time of things. However, that is all in the past now. Where they go from here is entirely up to them. They have all the tools at their disposal they would ever need to overcome the injustices of the past.

    If they choose to not make use of them, then they really have no one to blame but themselves.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 06-14-14 at 02:52 AM.

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Statistically that is not so. To assert that race has no bearing on many social (cultural?) trends within the US is dishonest. What other group voted 90% for Obama?
    So what are you saying?

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    Re: Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Our ancestors, obviously. You are no more a "victim" of slavery or segregation than I am a victim of the potato famine or "Irish Need Not Apply" signs.

    Claiming otherwise is simply delusional.
    I'm glad you basically ignored the question I asked you so you could repeat the same catch phrases over and over again. However, here it is again it's not going away:

    Did the Irish suddenly stop being oppressed as a group of people to the point where the cultural and social oppression of the past was no longer an issue?
    The fact is that they stopped being oppressed and the cultural and social oppression of the past is still an issue for most Irish. The fact that Ireland only managed to become any kind of economic power in the 1990s is proof enough. In a continent where nations like Portugal, Holland and Switzerland have all taken their shots at being economic powers, the Irish only managed to do it in the 1990s. Why is that? It could be the fact that they were oppressed by England until up to the 1960s. Go figure! And they had a country all to themselves!

    In contrast: The Irish in America? Thriving thanks to the fact that they were first class citizens. Hell, the Irish had become full Americans by the 1930s thanks to the fact that they were white. All of which reinforces the white privilege argument. The Polish, the Germans, the Swiss all were fully integrated into American society (remember: a culture doesn't integrate itself, it has to be integrated) by the time the 1960s rolled around. Blacks were completely rejected by the same society. And this was DURING the supposed period in the 1920s (The Harlem Renaissance) where race relations mended.

    No one gets excused, because it was in the past, and therefore completely irrelevant to anything taking place today.
    Ah, so people who were oppressed and are still alive, don't get an excuse for not becoming as successful as those who've had centuries to amass wealth? LOL. You're the type that blames the rape victim aren't ya?

    I was simply pointing out that the extent of the discrimination against African Americans was no where near as complete as you were making it out to be. In the North and the West, anti-Irish and anti-black discrimination were probably on about equal terms.
    Only they weren't. Whereas Irish were able to own property and amass wealth countrywide (thanks to Jim Crowe laws, urbanization laws etc), this was denied to blacks countrywide. This is a fact.

    Again, the black community was well on its way towards the same in many parts of the country prior to the 1970s.
    WHERE? In Harlem? In one neighborhood? In the 1920s? You're simply being disingenuous now. For the most part, black poverty was levels above what it is today. Your claim that black people were coming up in America before the the 1960s just isn't founded on any kind of data but historical revisionism. Hell, for your argument to hold water, poverty in the US would have had to gone up in the last few years instead of down 65%! The fact of the matter is that entering poverty and coming out of poverty works in generational terms. For large groups it doesn't happen over 10 years, it doesn't even happen over 20 years. It takes decades of economic development as well as economic favoritism for it to happen. The same kind of economic development that benefited the Irish must happen for African Americans, only it's not because of the pull yourselves up by the bootstrap mentality. Essentially, it works this way:

    1. America got rich off black backs and their cheap labor.
    2. Blacks ask for a hand in economic terms.
    3. America now tells blacks to get rich on their own.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-14-14 at 03:27 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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