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Who do you blame for the problems of African Americans?? [W:98]

Who is MOST to blame for the problems of African Americans?

  • GOP

    Votes: 5 5.1%
  • Black Leadership

    Votes: 22 22.4%
  • Democrats

    Votes: 15 15.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 56 57.1%

  • Total voters
    98
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We have reached a common ground - 'classism' is the bigger problem. I don't think anyone is denying that racism still exists, but what I and others have said is that racism isn't what it used to be. The biggest issue why so many blacks can't rise above has less to do with "racism" or "prejudice" than some here claim.

BTW, your post may be the very first post of your that I have ever 'liked'. :D

I have no doubt that racism has subsided a great deal. However, I don't think we can completely separate classism from racism. At least, not in this country. IMO, many people still make judgements based on race (racial prejudice as opposed to outright racism).
 
I do think that classism is a bigger problem than racism, but I don't think we have outgrown racism. However, that may be a bias of mine as I grew up in an extremely racist environment.

Yep, I did too but it hasn't completely jaded my precepts of what real racism is. If anything, it has solidified my belief that today's PC version is way off.
 
Yep, I did too but it hasn't completely jaded my precepts of what real racism is. If anything, it has solidified my belief that today's PC version is way off.

It has had the same effect with me, but I can't dismiss that which I can't see and bias is something one does not perceive in oneself.
 
It has had the same effect with me, but I can't dismiss that which I can't see and bias is something one does not perceive in oneself.

I'll tell you that racism still exists in a meaningful way but only in the form of classism. The elite don't care what our skin color or ethnicity is, as much as our education and skill level are. They measure us like a machine in what we can perform, nothing else.
 
I'll tell you that racism still exists in a meaningful way but only in the form of classism. The elite don't care what our skin color or ethnicity is, as much as our education and skill level are. They measure us like a machine in what we can perform, nothing else.

I agree with that, but I'm not sure I would call racism a form of classism. However, at least in the US, the two seem "entwined" with each other. Or maybe entwined isn't the best word for it, but I can't think of a better word to use.

For example, I think there's a tendency amongst many people to associate black people with the lower class and the lower class with black people. The racism and racial prejudice of some reinforces the negative associations they have regarding lower classes. That is, if you're racist, the fact that blacks are more likely to be poor makes it easier for you to have a negative opinion of poor people, even if most poor people are white.
 
I really think it is a combination of many different factors. To say it is the fault of one source, a certain party, or "Black leadership," is misguided. What exactly do you mean by black leadership? There are very many political leaders in the African American community, but they all have different backgrounds and different political ideologies. To group Ben Carson, Barack Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., and Marcus Garvey, among others, in the same category and to say that they all seek the same goals is laughable. One could say Democrats and Republicans have jointly allowed it to happen. This doesn't restrict itself to the plight of African-Americans: people of every race who suffer from poverty can look to the failed leadership of both parties, who have held a duopoly on American politics, with very few exceptions, for over a century. One of the largest and most noticeable results of this duopoly between a right-wing and centrist party is the absence of a universal healthcare system when one exists in virtually every country in the industrialized world. This leads to higher poverty rates which negatively affect the African-American population.

However, I have something to add about the phrasing of the question. If we continue the premise is that we are thinking of the problems of African-Americans as separate from the rest of the U.S., we can never truly never solve the issue of racial inequality. Racially focused social programs, while well-intentioned, create a mindset in society that one race is more "deserving" of benefits than another, according to the government, and therefore creates racial tensions. What is needed is social programs such as class-based affirmative action that will aid all people in poverty regardless of race. If the government continues to operate by using racially biased policies, one can guarantee that the populous will have racist sympathies in one direction or the other.
 
Blacks themselves. They encourage scapegoatism and "blaming whitey". If you're a success doing something besides ballin, slingin, or rappin, you're a sellout. If you speak coherently, you're "talking white". If you're black and support responsibility amongst your own, you're an Uncle Tom.

Black culture does great at keeping their own people down and explaining who is to blame for it.

Congratulations Gipper and welcome to the club_

Henceforth you will officially be known as a "racist"_

This is the price exacted for Political Incorrectness_
 
Oh...OK, slavery, in the US, was not about racism.


Wow.

Lots of white people have been taken slaves over the course of history. Look at the Vikings as just one example. I doubt that they ever had a slave who wasn't white. Why is it that you can only equate slavery with blacks?? An honest historical perspective shows that they were far from the only people made slaves, yet that's where your mind automatically jumps. Are you just completely ignorant of any history outside of American history? Do you think that blacks are supposed to be slaves?? Or maybe (here's by far the most likely scenario) you are too lazy to think outside of the parameter set forth by your political orientation??
 
I'm want to focus on both and more. As your post makes clear, you see it in black and white. That either/or type thinking is flawed

Some things I do see as a binary choice, others not so much. But I'm always honest about either one. You have chosen to pick and choose issues that support the deterioration of this situation and I choose those that support overcoming it. Who working for the best for the people living in poverty?? Here's a hint: IT AIN'T YOU!!!
 
All of the above .. to a lesser or greater extent.
Solution (my idea) a national open and HONEST dialog, including emotional releases..
The "dialog / discussion" MUST BE well moderated...we have too many people who can not think/reason with respect.. I see this crap on MSNBC and Fox every day and am tired of it...
 
Correct answer is not on the list. Crack.

Prior to the introduction of crack, blacks were on track to equal whites in pay, housing, education and a whole host of other issues. Crack basically stopped that and they lost ground.
A definite factor...no doubt.
Intolerance is my answer, Not conservatives nor liberals. But this is but one part...
 
I really think it is a combination of many different factors. To say it is the fault of one source, a certain party, or "Black leadership," is misguided. What exactly do you mean by black leadership? There are very many political leaders in the African American community, but they all have different backgrounds and different political ideologies. To group Ben Carson, Barack Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., and Marcus Garvey, among others, in the same category and to say that they all seek the same goals is laughable. One could say Democrats and Republicans have jointly allowed it to happen. This doesn't restrict itself to the plight of African-Americans: people of every race who suffer from poverty can look to the failed leadership of both parties, who have held a duopoly on American politics, with very few exceptions, for over a century. One of the largest and most noticeable results of this duopoly between a right-wing and centrist party is the absence of a universal healthcare system when one exists in virtually every country in the industrialized world. This leads to higher poverty rates which negatively affect the African-American population.

However, I have something to add about the phrasing of the question. If we continue the premise is that we are thinking of the problems of African-Americans as separate from the rest of the U.S., we can never truly never solve the issue of racial inequality. Racially focused social programs, while well-intentioned, create a mindset in society that one race is more "deserving" of benefits than another, according to the government, and therefore creates racial tensions. What is needed is social programs such as class-based affirmative action that will aid all people in poverty regardless of race. If the government continues to operate by using racially biased policies, one can guarantee that the populous will have racist sympathies in one direction or the other.
Probably the best and most intelligent answer.
libs blaming cons or vice versa solves nothing , and is childish.
 
Why is it that you can only equate slavery with blacks??
Straw, I never said I could not......BUT....the focus of the debate IS blacks...in the US.....and the point still is that white racism was a fundamental rationale for slavery's continuation in the South.
 
Lots of white people have been taken slaves over the course of history. Look at the Vikings as just one example. I doubt that they ever had a slave who wasn't white. Why is it that you can only equate slavery with blacks?? An honest historical perspective shows that they were far from the only people made slaves, yet that's where your mind automatically jumps. Are you just completely ignorant of any history outside of American history? Do you think that blacks are supposed to be slaves?? Or maybe (here's by far the most likely scenario) you are too lazy to think outside of the parameter set forth by your political orientation??

People have been taken as slaves for different reasons throughout history. Your thinking is indeed strangely binary.
 
No, again, you are conflating 2 statements, it was easier for single women to live on their own following no-fault divorce and their increasing wage gains in the 1960's......and 20 years later thru today, wage gains for all lower quintile workers (particularly women) have gone stagnant or negative.

I have my explanation of the same phenom, your argument is to return to marriage being an economic necessity, resulting in higher female suicide and homicide.....rather than creating greater wage gains for women and men in lower quintiles.

I know, fear of violence and suicide...is selfishness, and everyone knows that continued decreased wage gains is something everyone anticipated!
So now marriage leads ot violence, suicide, and dependency?

No, it still seems to me that one of the solutions to poverty, whether the poor are black or white, is to get married before making babies.
 
I'm want to focus on both and more. As your post makes clear, you see it in black and white. That either/or type thinking is flawed

OK, well you go on thinking that I'm exactly the way you want to think that I am and continue to ignore reality.
 
Straw, I never said I could not......BUT....the focus of the debate IS blacks...in the US.....and the point still is that white racism was a fundamental rationale for slavery's continuation in the South.

YOu're right, you never explicitly stated that only blacks are slaves, you just only referenced black slaves and the impact that slavery had on them. My ancestors were both slavers (Vikings) and the enslaved (Irish/British) and for some odd reason I don't carry one bit of guilt over them being slavers nor one bit of anger towards then for the enslaving. I live my life in the present. Would you lik to know why I don't?? Because I wasn't indoctrinated into the anger and victimhood that today's black are indoctrinated into. For the blacks who think that they are suffering because of what happened over 150 years, I can only say that it's time to move on. Stop walllowing in the past and start living for your future. For those who continually remind people of that history with the intent of creating that anger and victimhood, my comments would over the filters on this site. They are among the worst that our society has to offer. People who use the mistakes of the past to try to drag down the present.
 
For the blacks who think that they are suffering because of what happened over 150 years, I can only say that it's time to move on.
As I showed in the study of black youths, the racism they see is not imagined, it is real and tangible and still exist against them.
 
So now marriage leads ot violence, suicide, and dependency?
Now? jeez Louise, it has been that way for centuries.

No, it still seems to me that one of the solutions to poverty, whether the poor are black or white, is to get married before making babies.
wash rinse repeat...

I have my explanation of the same phenom, your argument is to return to marriage being an economic necessity, resulting in higher female suicide and homicide.....rather than creating greater wage gains for women and men in lower quintiles.
 
I agree with that, but I'm not sure I would call racism a form of classism. However, at least in the US, the two seem "entwined" with each other. Or maybe entwined isn't the best word for it, but I can't think of a better word to use.

For example, I think there's a tendency amongst many people to associate black people with the lower class and the lower class with black people. The racism and racial prejudice of some reinforces the negative associations they have regarding lower classes. That is, if you're racist, the fact that blacks are more likely to be poor makes it easier for you to have a negative opinion of poor people, even if most poor people are white.

But that's my point that the real economic problem is not associated with race, as much as meeting a certain criteria to gain access to funding for higher education and job opportunities. It's not because a majority of the Fortune 500 are white males, it's because they're elitist. And many of the cultural problems for blacks, latinos and poor whites are from generations of negative habits and customs, poverty is truly a trap, not just 'whitey' holding people down.
 
But that's my point that the real economic problem is not associated with race, as much as meeting a certain criteria to gain access to funding for higher education and job opportunities. It's not because a majority of the Fortune 500 are white males, it's because they're elitist. And many of the cultural problems for blacks, latinos and poor whites are from generations of negative habits and customs, poverty is truly a trap, not just 'whitey' holding people down.

I would never say that racism is the only thing that is causing problems for black people. I wouldn't even say it's the cause for the difference in the % of white and black people who are poor. However, it definitely plays a role. How big of a role is debatable but it's not the "nothing" or "negligible effect" that some are arguing.
 
I would never say that racism is the only thing that is causing problems for black people. I wouldn't even say it's the cause for the difference in the % of white and black people who are poor. However, it definitely plays a role. How big of a role is debatable but it's not the "nothing" or "negligible effect" that some are arguing.

Agreed. I do believe that aversive racism does exist, even among liberals and progressives. I don't believe many people are trying to keep black people down, but I find the notion that black people should 'just get over it, and move on' the second segregation ends to be a bit dishonest from people who argue it. It wasn't that long ago.
 
As I showed in the study of black youths, the racism they see is not imagined, it is real and tangible and still exist against them.

I've seen some those studies and they confuse racism with discrimination against a "thug" stereotype that far too many young blacks embrace. IMO, the issue isn't related to the fact that they are black, but rather that what most people notice the most about young blacks is the stereotype that they seem to love. When someone sees a young black guy wearing "gang" style clothing and with an attitude to match, they do pull back. See that enough and they start equating that same attitude with all young blacks.
The problem looks like this:
Joe citizen sees a young black person.
The young black person is acting like a stereotypical "thug".
Joe citizen sees another young black person.
That young black person is acting like a stereotypical "thug".
Repeat a dozen times or so and what happens is that the idea of young black person equaling a "thug" gets reinforced, regardless of the person dress or behavior.

Keep in mind that I learned this from a guy who's an ex-Law enforcement and is black (nicest guy you ever wanted to have your back since he's considered an actual mountain in several states [muscle, not fat]). Tom told me that the problem is that people learn things and what they are learning about young blacks these days has far more negative than positive. The problem is twofold, first of all people should be judging others solely on their character and not their manner of dress, secondly, if you want respect, act respectful.
 
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