View Poll Results: Should the words "Under God" be in the pledge of allegiance?

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  • Yes

    21 27.63%
  • No

    55 72.37%
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Thread: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

  1. #51
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    "God" to the Founders was whatever or whomever anybody wished to make of it, and was reference to the power, intelligence, or universal truth of the source of all that humankind was intended to be. Historically it was the power drawn on to do great things, to claim the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness unopposed by any despot, dictator, monarch, feudal lord, pope, or any other who would assign the rights to the people. And the Founders, pretty much to a man, even the Atheists, believed the Constitution would not work for any other than a mostly moral and religious people.

    So the concept, sans any mandate of how one much view God and sans any mandate of how one must express his/her religious beliefs, is firmly entrenched in our foundations, our history, our motto, and our heritage. And for that reason, I have no problem with it being in the Pledge of Allegiance. Nor do I have any problem with the Pledge itself, because without allegiance to our language, borders, culture, we cease to be the America that the Founders intended.
    Did you know that the under God phrase wasn't in the pledge until the early-1950s? It was added to harass 'godless' commies.

    The founders wisely did not dictate our language, borders, and culture in the constitution, even the pledge does not mention those aspects of our nation. The USA that the Founders intended was a (representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion.

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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    It might have meant that to some when it was added in 1954, just nine years after the original Pledge was adopted, not the 80's, but there was absolutely no requirement of any kind that you were required to see it as either Christian or anti-soviet or anything else. All 50 state Constitutions, 48 or 49 in their Preambles, refer to God or a Creator/higher power, again in reference to the historical concept of a universal truth that the nation was founded on. Nobody is required to believe that such God is a person or to worship that God in any way, shape, or form. Nor is anybody allowed to be forbidden to do so.

    It is a historical concept, not a principle of religious belief.

    "...By June 29, 1892, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the Columbus Day celebrations (this was issued as Presidential Proclamation 335). Subsequently, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances organized to coincide with the opening of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois.[11]



    ..Swearing of the Pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, the United States Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute....

    ....1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case, Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry, could be compelled to swear the Pledge. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling. In 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette the Supreme Court reversed its decision..."
    Wikipedia

  3. #53
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Currently they are, and I don't consider it worth the effort to get it changed. Gotta pick your battles kinda thing. It ain't really hurting any one.
    That's my take. The poll needs a third choice - Who cares.

  4. #54
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    If you don't like it, don't say it. The Pledge is socialist nonsense anyway.
    Why... How?

    Because it's declaring loyalty to the state?

  5. #55
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    You may take me as having made the claim that children are being successfully indoctrinated. But, I have just told you that was not the claim I was trying to make. I really don't care to claim that it is effective, and it doesn't matter to me with regard to whether the words should be removed. If you insist that it is, and then continue to disprove what YOU say I meant, then you are merely addressing a straw man.
    If your point is that you didn't mean what you said, but instead meant something else, fine, no big deal. None of us are posting here professionally so if you mistakenly said something you didn't mean it's not the end of the world. No harm done and it didn't cost me a dime.

    As to your points: I concede that successful indoctrination is not proven. I comment again that I don't care, as it really isn't part of my point. I still contend that there is plenty of evidence to tentatively accept that the intent is indoctrination.
    So you were having a rhetorical argument with someone and I stepped in the middle of it because I didn't like what I saw.

    Good enough for me.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Dump him...overrated, fictitious fantasy.

    Might as well swear to a swimming pool for all the good it will do ya.

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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson View Post
    I saw this poll elsewhere and decided to post it on here. I'm sorry ahead of time if this poll has been done already.
    We literally pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric.

    There are bigger issues with the pledge than "Under God."
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Why... How?

    Because it's declaring loyalty to the state?
    It was written by a democratic socialist, but that's it.

  9. #59
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    If your point is that you didn't mean what you said, but instead meant something else, fine, no big deal. None of us are posting here professionally so if you mistakenly said something you didn't mean it's not the end of the world. No harm done and it didn't cost me a dime.



    So you were having a rhetorical argument with someone and I stepped in the middle of it because I didn't like what I saw.

    Good enough for me.
    I disagree that indoctrination necessarily entails the successful conditioning of a mind. So, the question as to whether I "didn't mean what I said" semantically is still up in the air. However, I am completely uninterested in debating that matter, and am simply registering my reservation.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  10. #60
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    Re: "Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Did you know that the under God phrase wasn't in the pledge until the early-1950s? It was added to harass 'godless' commies.

    The founders wisely did not dictate our language, borders, and culture in the constitution, even the pledge does not mention those aspects of our nation. The USA that the Founders intended was a (representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion.
    Yes, and as I previously posted, the Pledge was approved and assigned to common usage in 1945. So the 'under God' phrase was added a scant nine years later. I am also very well versed in the Federalist and anti-Federalist arguments and all the other documents we have to understand the intent of the Founders. It is rarely paraphrased as 'language/borders/culture' but the intent is there in a careful reading of the documents and histories. And a common language, clearly defined borders, and a culture of understanding and appreciation for what liberty is formed a critical component to means by which the people could keep the ". . .(representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion. . . ." that the Founders intended to create.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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