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"Under God" in pledge of allegiance?

Should the words "Under God" be in the pledge of allegiance?

  • Total voters
    64
AlbqOwl said:
"God" to the Founders was whatever or whomever anybody wished to make of it, and was reference to the power, intelligence, or universal truth of the source of all that humankind was intended to be. Historically it was the power drawn on to do great things, to claim the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness unopposed by any despot, dictator, monarch, feudal lord, pope, or any other who would assign the rights to the people. And the Founders, pretty much to a man, even the Atheists, believed the Constitution would not work for any other than a mostly moral and religious people.

So the concept, sans any mandate of how one much view God and sans any mandate of how one must express his/her religious beliefs, is firmly entrenched in our foundations, our history, our motto, and our heritage. And for that reason, I have no problem with it being in the Pledge of Allegiance. Nor do I have any problem with the Pledge itself, because without allegiance to our language, borders, culture, we cease to be the America that the Founders intended.
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Did you know that the under God phrase wasn't in the pledge until the early-1950s? It was added to harass 'godless' commies.

The founders wisely did not dictate our language, borders, and culture in the constitution, even the pledge does not mention those aspects of our nation. The USA that the Founders intended was a (representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion.
 
AlbqOwl said:
It might have meant that to some when it was added in 1954, just nine years after the original Pledge was adopted, not the 80's, but there was absolutely no requirement of any kind that you were required to see it as either Christian or anti-soviet or anything else. All 50 state Constitutions, 48 or 49 in their Preambles, refer to God or a Creator/higher power, again in reference to the historical concept of a universal truth that the nation was founded on. Nobody is required to believe that such God is a person or to worship that God in any way, shape, or form. Nor is anybody allowed to be forbidden to do so.

It is a historical concept, not a principle of religious belief.
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"...By June 29, 1892, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the Columbus Day celebrations (this was issued as Presidential Proclamation 335). Subsequently, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances organized to coincide with the opening of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois.[11]

220px-Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg


..Swearing of the Pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, the United States Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute....

....1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case, Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry, could be compelled to swear the Pledge. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling. In 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette the Supreme Court reversed its decision..."
Wikipedia
 
Redress said:
Currently they are, and I don't consider it worth the effort to get it changed. Gotta pick your battles kinda thing. It ain't really hurting any one.
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That's my take. The poll needs a third choice - Who cares.
 
Dezaad said:
You may take me as having made the claim that children are being successfully indoctrinated. But, I have just told you that was not the claim I was trying to make. I really don't care to claim that it is effective, and it doesn't matter to me with regard to whether the words should be removed. If you insist that it is, and then continue to disprove what YOU say I meant, then you are merely addressing a straw man.
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If your point is that you didn't mean what you said, but instead meant something else, fine, no big deal. None of us are posting here professionally so if you mistakenly said something you didn't mean it's not the end of the world. No harm done and it didn't cost me a dime.

As to your points: I concede that successful indoctrination is not proven. I comment again that I don't care, as it really isn't part of my point. I still contend that there is plenty of evidence to tentatively accept that the intent is indoctrination.
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So you were having a rhetorical argument with someone and I stepped in the middle of it because I didn't like what I saw.

Good enough for me.
 
Dump him...overrated, fictitious fantasy.

Might as well swear to a swimming pool for all the good it will do ya.
 
soot said:
If your point is that you didn't mean what you said, but instead meant something else, fine, no big deal. None of us are posting here professionally so if you mistakenly said something you didn't mean it's not the end of the world. No harm done and it didn't cost me a dime.



So you were having a rhetorical argument with someone and I stepped in the middle of it because I didn't like what I saw.

Good enough for me.
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I disagree that indoctrination necessarily entails the successful conditioning of a mind. So, the question as to whether I "didn't mean what I said" semantically is still up in the air. However, I am completely uninterested in debating that matter, and am simply registering my reservation.
 
Hard Truth said:
Did you know that the under God phrase wasn't in the pledge until the early-1950s? It was added to harass 'godless' commies.

The founders wisely did not dictate our language, borders, and culture in the constitution, even the pledge does not mention those aspects of our nation. The USA that the Founders intended was a (representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion.
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Yes, and as I previously posted, the Pledge was approved and assigned to common usage in 1945. So the 'under God' phrase was added a scant nine years later. I am also very well versed in the Federalist and anti-Federalist arguments and all the other documents we have to understand the intent of the Founders. It is rarely paraphrased as 'language/borders/culture' but the intent is there in a careful reading of the documents and histories. And a common language, clearly defined borders, and a culture of understanding and appreciation for what liberty is formed a critical component to means by which the people could keep the ". . .(representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion. . . ." that the Founders intended to create.
 
Hard Truth said:
Did you know that the under God phrase wasn't in the pledge until the early-1950s? It was added to harass 'godless' commies.

The founders wisely did not dictate our language, borders, and culture in the constitution, even the pledge does not mention those aspects of our nation. The USA that the Founders intended was a (representational) democracy free from control by royalty, aristocrats and state-mandated or sponsored religion.
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no no!........never intended to a democratic form of government
 
Dezaad said:
I disagree that indoctrination necessarily entails the successful conditioning of a mind. So, the question as to whether I "didn't mean what I said" semantically is still up in the air. However, I am completely uninterested in debating that matter, and am simply registering my reservation.
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Yeah, okay, whatevs.
 
Hard Truth said:
"...By June 29, 1892, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the Columbus Day celebrations (this was issued as Presidential Proclamation 335). Subsequently, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances organized to coincide with the opening of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois.[11]

220px-Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_ with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg


..Swearing of the Pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, the United States Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute....

....1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case, Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry, could be compelled to swear the Pledge. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling. In 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette the Supreme Court reversed its decision..."
Wikipedia
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The dates I provided for the 'official' adoption of the Pledge of Allegiance were from memory. Those posted on the site linked below are a few years different:

Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance in 1942, but in 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students could not be forced to recite it.

The words "under God" were added in 1954 by then President Eisenhower, who stated at the time, "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
Brief history of the Pledge of Allegiance​

And from the ReligiousTolerance site who I have caught in some factual errors and are not above presenting their information with some bias, but who usually do a better-than-average job in their research:

. . .its original form, it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It was first published in a children's magazine Youth's Companion, in 1892 to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus' arrival in the Americas. 4 The word "to" was added before "the Republic" in 1892-OCT. He considered including the word "equality" in the pledge, but decided against it because he knew that many Americans at the time were opposed to equality for women and African-Americans. Opposition to equality continues today; a sizeable minority of American adults remain opposed to equal rights for women, gays and lesbians, and transsexuals.

By 1924, the "National Flag Conference, under the leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Francis Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored." 3

Most Jehovah's Witness children refuse to acknowledge the flag. In 1940, the U.S. Supreme Court denied children the right of freedom of speech. The court ruled that school boards could compel their students to recite the Pledge. The court reversed itself three years later. 4

In 1953, the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus mounted a campaign to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. The nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, a reported 15 resolutions were initiated in Congress to change the pledge. They got nowhere until Rev. George Docherty (1911 - 2008) preached a sermon that was attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps on 1954-FEB-7. His sermon said in part:

"Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow."
After the service, President Eisenhower said that he agreed with the sermon. In the following weeks, the news spread, and public opinion grew. Three days later, Senator Homer Ferguson, (R-MI), sponsored a bill to add God to the Pledge. It was approved as a joint resolution 1954-JUN-8. It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time:

"From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." 4

With the addition of "under God" to the Pledge, it became both "a patriotic oath and a public prayer...Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change." 3. . . .

The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review this change to the Pledge. The Court has commented in passing on the motto saying that: "[o]ur previous opinions have considered in dicta the motto and the pledge [of allegiance], characterizing them as consistent with the proposition that government may not communicate an endorsement of religious belief." [Allegheny, 492 U.S.]
Pledge of Allegiance and its "under God" phrase​

And as for the best commentary on the Pledge of Allegiance I have EVER heard, it was this one:

 
IF we have to pull the plegde from school because its "indoctrination" then maybe we should pull FDR and the NEW Deal from history classes because it "indoctrinates" kids to believe that the NEW Deal and socialism saved america (when it really lengthened the depression 5 years.) Lets pull abraham lincoln out of the history books because it "indoctrinates" kids to believe that Lincoln was a good president although he overstepped almost ALL of the boundaries of his powers as president. Ohhh and uhhh shaking hands and saying "good game" after gym class or sporting events indoctrinates kids to congradulate losers.... oh my I've gone on another awful somewhat snyde and rude satirical rant.... oh my.
 
Ad_Captandum said:
Why... How?

Because it's declaring loyalty to the state?
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Because it was written by a socialist, its purpose to teach children to elevate the state over the individual, and that the nature of the US is to be an indivisible republic forever, which goes against the ideals of the founding fathers. The guy who wrote it wanted to include a reference to equality, but knew it wouldn't get passed by the state PC censors, who were against equality for blacks and women at the time.
 
Johnson said:
I saw this poll elsewhere and decided to post it on here. I'm sorry ahead of time if this poll has been done already.
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You didn't include my answer: It doesn't matter.
 
Tothian said:
I don't like it when people remove God from everything.
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Why? We're not talking about removing god from everything, just something kids are forced to pledge to every day.
 
It's there, so let it stay there. I said it for years and it didn't harm me. My kids say it every day and none of them know any religion.
 
AlbqOwl said:
It might have meant that to some when it was added in 1954, just nine years after the original Pledge was adopted, not the 80's, but there was absolutely no requirement of any kind that you were required to see it as either Christian or anti-soviet or anything else. All 50 state Constitutions, 48 or 49 in their Preambles, refer to God or a Creator/higher power, again in reference to the historical concept of a universal truth that the nation was founded on. Nobody is required to believe that such God is a person or to worship that God in any way, shape, or form. Nor is anybody allowed to be forbidden to do so.

It is a historical concept, not a principle of religious belief.
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AlbqOwl said:
It might have meant that to some when it was added in 1954, just nine years after the original Pledge was adopted, not the 80's, but there was absolutely no requirement of any kind that you were required to see it as either Christian or anti-soviet or anything else. All 50 state Constitutions, 48 or 49 in their Preambles, refer to God or a Creator/higher power, again in reference to the historical concept of a universal truth that the nation was founded on. Nobody is required to believe that such God is a person or to worship that God in any way, shape, or form. Nor is anybody allowed to be forbidden to do so.

It is a historical concept, not a principle of religious belief.
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Nope. In 1954, it was Cold War politics in cahoots with Christian lobbying that found "under God" added. As to the later, "under God" was promoted to Eisenhower by the Knights of Columbus, a Christian organization, and his own Methodist minister. "God" with a capital "G" is a proper name and his used as a primary name for the god of the Christians.

"FROM THIS DAY FORWARD, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty. To anyone who truly loves America, nothing could be more inspiring than to contemplate this rededication of our youth, on each school morning, to our country's true meaning."
-- Statement by the President Eisenhower Upon Signing Bill To Include the Words "Under God" in the Pledge to the Flag.
June 14, 1954

Clearly meant to be a reference to the Christian God (maybe you could squeeze in Jewish). Clearly intended to indoctrinate god-belief along with the rest of the socialist propaganda the Pledge was written to indoctrinate.

So, yeah, you could hear "under God" in some other way than Christians using the government to indoctrinate other people's kids in a specific religious belief and its diety. But that isn't the way it was intended.
 
Hard Truth said:
"...By June 29, 1892, Bellamy and Upham had arranged for Congress and President Benjamin Harrison to announce a proclamation making the public school flag ceremony the center of the Columbus Day celebrations (this was issued as Presidential Proclamation 335). Subsequently, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892, during Columbus Day observances organized to coincide with the opening of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois.[11]

220px-Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg


..Swearing of the Pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, the United States Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute....

....1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case, Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry, could be compelled to swear the Pledge. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling. In 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette the Supreme Court reversed its decision..."
Wikipedia
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There wasn't just a similarity in the salute. The fascists got it from admiring previous decades of American children doing it!
 
LovingCommie said:
It was written by a democratic socialist, but that's it.
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Oh no. Much more than that.
Francis Bellamy, the author of the Pledge, was a former Baptist minister who preached that Jesus was a socialist and advocated income taxation, central banking, nationalized education, nationalization of industry, and other tenets of socialism. His challenge was how to replace the federalist view of the country (where states and individual rights were sovereign) with a nationalist one that would pave the foundation for a central socialist government.

The “one nation, indivisible” wording was especially important to Bellamy for achieving his vision of socialism through a consolidated, monopoly government. He even considered adding the the socialist bywords, “fraternity and equality”, but knew that state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.

Re-education of the public would prove difficult. But if American youth could to be taught “loyalty to the state”, it would pave the way for the socialist utopia that was described in his famous socialist cousin Edward Bellamy’s ‘Looking Backward”. The place to start would need to be primary education. The public schools could be used teach blind obedience to the central state. They planned a “National Public School Celebration” in 1892, which was the first national propaganda campaign on behalf of the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a massive campaign that involved government schools and politicians throughout the country. The government schools were promoted, along with the Pledge, while private schools, especially parochial ones, were criticized. Thus preparing the ground for the acceptance of socialism in the hearts and minds of the youth.

What's Conservative about the Pledge of Allegiance? | Cato Institute
 
Tothian said:
I don't like it when people remove God from everything.
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And, I don't like it when people try to legislate religious ideas onto my children.
 
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