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Is All This Really Necessary?

Is All This Necessary?

  • Total voters
    44
CLAX1911 said:
In this instance, a police officer was shot in the neck. Paramedics aren't going to rush in and get shot at. Had they had this armored vehicle they could have just driven it is and got him.

Beware the video is a bit graphic.

Graphic Video: Officer Shot in Neck During Firefight | On Air Videos | Fox News
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And the odds that they would have had a MRAP on site to keep that cop from getting shot are probably close to zero. No dept is going to have cops out doing patrols with one. They are huge unwieldy super expensive to operate vehicles.
 
braindrain said:
And the odds that they would have had a MRAP on site to keep that cop from getting shot are probably close to zero. No dept is going to have cops out doing patrols with one. They are huge unwieldy super expensive to operate vehicles.
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The thing has wheels you can drive it. Why wouldn't they drive it out there? What you posted makes no sense.
 
This here is one of the most disturbing parts of the article

In the Indianapolis suburbs, officers said they needed a mine-resistant vehicle to protect against a possible attack by veterans returning from war.

“You have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build I.E.D.’s and to defeat law enforcement techniques,” Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told the local Fox affiliate, referring to improvised explosive devices, or homemade bombs. Sergeant Downing did not return a message seeking comment.
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So what does this say about how people view veterans?

What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

and how does this statement line up with the narrative of "criminal activity" as it is being presented?

Another comment from the article

“It just seems like ramping up a police department for a problem we don’t have,” said Shay Korittnig, a father of two who spoke against getting the armored truck at a recent public meeting in Neenah. “This is not what I was looking for when I moved here, that my children would view their local police officer as an M-16-toting, SWAT-apparel-wearing officer.”
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This is an important aspect too. What kind of effect will this have on the psyche of Americans?

People want their cops to be Dirty Harry on the inside and Barney Fife on the out. There is no doubt that with the progressive militarization of our police that alienation will also take place.

Another excerpt for the article

Masked, heavily armed police officers in Louisiana raided a nightclub in 2006 as part of a liquor inspection. In Florida in 2010, officers in SWAT gear and with guns drawn carried out raids on barbershops that mostly led only to charges of “barbering without a license.”
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As everyone knows there isn't a person alive who gets a new toy and doesn't want to play with it and the above examples show how the police will play. OVER KILL.

None of these police are SEALs, ok? There might be a few but for the overwhelming majority, no. No amount of playing dress up is going to change that.

So what happens? More and more mundane, routine, low intensity police work gets carried out in high intensity fashion.

Since few towns and villages have the resources for dedicated personnel needed to train constantly at a level of intensity suitable to ensure favorable and intended outcomes what you end up with is Barney Fifes on the inside swearing to God that they're Dirty Harry on the out.

and that's when mistakes and accidents cause bad things to happen to good people. Civilian and police alike.
 
ChezC3 said:
This here is one of the most disturbing parts of the article



So what does this say about how people view veterans?

What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

and how does this statement line up with the narrative of "criminal activity" as it is being presented?

Another comment from the article



This is an important aspect too. What kind of effect will this have on the psyche of Americans?

People want their cops to be Dirty Harry on the inside and Barney Fife on the out. There is no doubt that with the progressive militarization of our police that alienation will also take place.

Another excerpt for the article



As everyone knows there isn't a person alive who gets a new toy and doesn't want to play with it and the above examples show how the police will play. OVER KILL.

None of these police are SEALs, ok? There might be a few but for the overwhelming majority, no. No amount of playing dress up is going to change that.

So what happens? More and more mundane, routine, low intensity police work gets carried out in high intensity fashion.

Since few towns and villages have the resources for dedicated personnel needed to train constantly at a level of intensity suitable to ensure favorable and intended outcomes what you end up with is Barney Fifes on the inside swearing to God that they're Dirty Harry on the out.

and that's when mistakes and accidents cause bad things to happen to good people. Civilian and police alike.
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The view on veterans as terrorists has been around for a few years now:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf
Homeland Security Report Warns Of Rising Right-Wing Extremism
Napolitano stands by controversial report - Washington Times
DHS' Domestic Terror Warning Angers GOP - CBS News
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?

This will be used against veterans:

Nearly 30% of Vets Treated by V.A. Have PTSD - The Daily Beast
Why suicide rate among veterans may be more than 22 a day - CNN.com
www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41921.pdf

Other pertinent information:

http://www.columbuspolice.org/Units/TEW Info/recognizing_sleepers_word2007trifold.pdf
 
Jango said:
The view on veterans as terrorists has been around for a few years now:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf
Homeland Security Report Warns Of Rising Right-Wing Extremism
Napolitano stands by controversial report - Washington Times
DHS' Domestic Terror Warning Angers GOP - CBS News
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?

This will be used against veterans:

Nearly 30% of Vets Treated by V.A. Have PTSD - The Daily Beast
Why suicide rate among veterans may be more than 22 a day - CNN.com
www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41921.pdf

Other pertinent information:

http://www.columbuspolice.org/Units/TEW Info/recognizing_sleepers_word2007trifold.pdf
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Yeah, I know and as a Vet it offends the hell out me.

So what about the question?

What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

Why should a government feel threatened by individuals who put their ass on the line for said government?

Now, I'm not all Gung Ho GI Joe like some, but seeing as I served, I could understand how the atrocities taking place by our government against the American people would stick in the craw of a USMC who seen 4 of his buddies die over there and have a bit more gumption in his intolerance for this sort of BS that's taking place than some emo grown of age whose hardest life lesson was to get a shot of penicillin in his ass for the clap, but domestic terrorist? C'mon...
 
ChezC3 said:
Yeah, I know and as a Vet it offends the hell out me.

So what about the question?

What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

Why should a government feel threatened by individuals who put their ass on the line for said government?

Now, I'm not all Gung Ho GI Joe like some, but seeing as I served, I could understand how the atrocities taking place by our government against the American people would stick in the craw of a USMC who seen 4 of his buddies die over there and have a bit more gumption in his intolerance for this sort of BS that's taking place than some emo grown of age whose hardest life lesson was to get a shot of penicillin in his ass for the clap, but domestic terrorist? C'mon...
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What's irritating is that we're treated as though we're still in - if one person ****s up then we all get ****ed up for it. I say that because there have been a couple, maybe several instances where veterans or active duty personnel have crossed the line, like the guys from Georgia IIRC that wanted to kill the President. When things like that happen, particularly when they hit the national media, the perception of military personnel, who are already viewed as a threat by bureaucrats the world around, becomes magnified. Why? Because time, money & resources have been put into us and we can hurt them badly. And anyone that can hurt you should at the minimum be watched. The high rate of mental illness & instability in some veterans when paired with the training & combat experience is a mixture of volatile moving parts that make people nervous. But generalizing everyone that has worn the uniform as a ticking time bomb is extreme & should not be accepted nor tolerated.
 
Jango said:
What's irritating is that we're treated as though we're still in - if one person ****s up then we all get ****ed up for it. I say that because there have been a couple, maybe several instances where veterans or active duty personnel have crossed the line, like the guys from Georgia IIRC that wanted to kill the President. When things like that happen, particularly when they hit the national media, the perception of military personnel, who are already viewed as a threat by bureaucrats the world around, becomes magnified. Why? Because time, money & resources have been put into us and we can hurt them badly. And anyone that can hurt you should at the minimum be watched. The high rate of mental illness & instability in some veterans when paired with the training & combat experience is a mixture of volatile moving parts that make people nervous. But generalizing everyone that has worn the uniform as a ticking time bomb is extreme & should not be accepted nor tolerated.
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I laughed at the first part...:lol:

I believe it's the manner in which they go about it and the asinine "what to watch fors" that irk me more than anything.

Reminds me of the duct tape terror prevention kits...

Blathering idiots...
 
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ChezC3 said:
I laughed at the first part...:lol:

I believe it's the manner in which they go about it and the asinine "what to watch fors" that irk me more than anything.

Reminds me of the duct tape terror prevention kits...

Blathering idiots..
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.
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I don't hear them blathering, I hear you.

Take a look in the mirror.

Duct tape and plastic sheeting, used correctly, could save a lot of lifes
 
ChezC3 said:
I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm pointing out that what you suggest, historically speaking has been a failure. This has been proven. [\quote]
No, it hasn't. All you did was show that the solution wasn't perfect. What you can't show is what would have happened without those laws. For all you or I know, the crime rate would have been 10X what it was without them. I can't prove it and neither can you.

I don't feel a draconian police state is the answer, I'm sorry, it just isn't. Further, since we want to talk about human nature, it is in our nature to acquire power, and with it abuse it, giving the police, who I'll state again have no constitutional obligation to protect any of us the means in which to further accumulate power will show and has shown that they will abuse such power. I'm not scared of "what ifs" I'm concerned with what is, and what is is a steadily moving government which has turned from a republic, to a democracy, to an authoritarian form of rule. Anything which will hamper this, which is going to happen regardless, but anything that will impede its progress I am 100% in favor of. If this means police will have to make do with Kevlar, semi-auto pistols, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles which is the same as any crazed band of "highly armed" criminals roaming the country side ready to strike Main St. America at any given time, than so be it.
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Why do you think that better equipment = a draconian police state?? I want criminals to be grossly out-gunned by the police, not on equal footing, not just a little worse, but so outgunned that the idea of a shoot-out with the police would be only attempted by the stupidest or most desperate of criminals. I want criminals to understand that when the police show up at your front door with a warrant, the only sane response is complete cooperation, since they have a machine that can drive through your house, backed by weapons that can "shoot through schools" (2 bonus for the movie reference).
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braindrain said:
That's just it. Criminals do not fight and win against LE now. Look at virtually every police shoot out in the last 20 years how many of then didn't end up with either the bad guy in jail or more likely dead.
In my opinion a whole lot of this stems from a large % of cops that want to pretend they are badass military SOF shooters. There is almost no reason that cops should be in cammo uniforms or using sniper guns with more range than a 7.62. Yet almost every SWAT is decked out in multicam and tons of Depts are buying sniper weapon systems chambered in 300wm all the way up to 50cal. It is out of hand.
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But they are having shootouts. THAT'S the problem. We need the criminals to know that they are bringing a knife to a tank fight when they come up against LE. We need then to KNOW that they will lose to the extent that they WON'T have shootout, they will simply surrender. We can't stop the idiots, the desperate or those who want to commit "suicide by cop", but we can stop the rest of them from thinking that they can win.
 
American said:
Nonsense, they don't need a 30 ton war machine that they aren't trained for. Come on man. It's overkill. It's like the military using nukes during every war.
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Why wouldn't they be trained to use the equipment?? ...and yes, it most certainly would have been an effective deterrent if deployed to the correct locations. The idea is to stop the fight from happening, not win it. We want the criminals to know that they will lose to the extent that they won't enter into the fight at all. THAT'S the goal. Not winning, but not fighting.
 
rathi said:
How many times have police gotten into situations that could only be resolved with heavy military equipment in the last decade? Compare that to the number of innocent people hurt by SWAT teams using completely excessive force for what should routine policing operations.

Right now there is a baby in a coma because apparently the SWAT team needed to perform a no-knock raid with flagbangs to capture a single guy reported doing a drug deal worth 50 dollars. The suspect they were after wasn't even in the house and no drugs were found.

I am certain that we are inevitably going to read a story on the news about how an innocent person gets run over because some wannabe rambo idiots rammed their MRAP into the wrong house while valiantly trying to arrest someone for unpaid parking tickets.
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Its just a truck, we make them. I hope every department buys two.
 
faithful_servant said:
Why wouldn't they be trained to use the equipment?? ...and yes, it most certainly would have been an effective deterrent if deployed to the correct locations. The idea is to stop the fight from happening, not win it. We want the criminals to know that they will lose to the extent that they won't enter into the fight at all. THAT'S the goal. Not winning, but not fighting.
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I don't believe the taxpayer should be footing the bill for a piece of equipment that might be used only in a zombie attack. It's completely out of line, and nothing but testosterone and ego building for the LAPD.
 
ChezC3 said:
Yeah, yeah, the conservatives are the one's living in fear while the dumb ass democrat in office is arming very governmental agency he can to the teeth...
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:lamo



Ze Germans are coming!!! ZE GERMANS ARE COMING!!!!. :scared:

You've got a better chance of seeing that than the roving, armed, criminal posses who're ready to strike and take down poor unsuspecting police departments in Middle America at any moment. The whole thing is contrived.
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It sounds like some people on the far right might have picked the wrong side.
 
Policing and the military are wholly incompatible. The police job is to enforce laws, arrest alleged criminals and let the justice system sort things out. The military's job is to kill the enemy. The police are supposed to be part of the community in which they work they aren't supposed to act as an occupying army.

Arming the police as if they were the military and giving them military style training is a disaster waiting happen - or in truth that is already happening
 
CRUE CAB said:
Its just a truck, we make them. I hope every department buys two.
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The problem isn't the truck, its that the idiots driving it think they are part of the A team. There have already been situations where the LEO's bring armored vehicles into a non-violent routine situations and go around needlessly smashing them into things.

There is nothing wrong with having more heavily armed police for extreme situations like the north hollywood shootout, but only if they are used in actual extreme situations. Instead, we have seen every wannabe Sheriff in the country treating this stuff like toys.
 
rathi said:
The problem isn't the truck, its that the idiots driving it think they are part of the A team. There have already been situations where the LEO's bring armored vehicles into a non-violent routine situations and go around needlessly smashing them into things.

There is nothing wrong with having more heavily armed police for extreme situations like the north hollywood shootout, but only if they are used in actual extreme situations. Instead, we have seen every wannabe Sheriff in the country treating this stuff like toys.
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Havent seen anyone mis use one yet. Maybe you could provide a link to a story? We were going to get one, but our local yokals lost an M16 that was given to them. So no more "military" surplus for the Melbourne PD.
 
The police don't need it. And shoot, most of this stuff has never really been used. It was built despite our military not needing. Because NOT building it means laying off union manufacturing employees.


Seriously.


Learn to military industrial complex, guys.
 
CLAX1911 said:
The thing has wheels you can drive it. Why wouldn't they drive it out there? What you posted makes no sense.
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I take it you have never driven an MRAP before and don't really know what you are talking about.
It is not that they couldn't drive it just that it is a huge unwieldy vehicle with horrible blind spots. They are also horribly expensive to operate. Take it from someone who has spent a fair amount of time in one. No cop is going to want to drive around in one of these day in and day out. Hell they are to big to fit in parking spaces. Not to mention local citizens will get tired of it real quick.
 
Oh, and let's not forget...owning and not using it is also pretty expensive. Stuff not in use (but ready for use) must be maintained. $$$
 
CRUE CAB said:
Havent seen anyone mis use one yet. Maybe you could provide a link to a story? We were going to get one, but our local yokals lost an M16 that was given to them. So no more "military" surplus for the Melbourne PD.
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That picture comes from a swat raid in which the idiots driving the APC forgot to park it properly and it rolled down a hill and nearly crushed a mother and her child. The only arrest from said raid was for unpaid parking tickets.

car.jpg
 
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