View Poll Results: Is All This Necessary?

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  • Yes

    6 13.04%
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    38 82.61%
  • Possibly. (Explain)

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Thread: Is All This Really Necessary?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    This here is one of the most disturbing parts of the article



    So what does this say about how people view veterans?

    What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

    and how does this statement line up with the narrative of "criminal activity" as it is being presented?

    Another comment from the article



    This is an important aspect too. What kind of effect will this have on the psyche of Americans?

    People want their cops to be Dirty Harry on the inside and Barney Fife on the out. There is no doubt that with the progressive militarization of our police that alienation will also take place.

    Another excerpt for the article



    As everyone knows there isn't a person alive who gets a new toy and doesn't want to play with it and the above examples show how the police will play. OVER KILL.

    None of these police are SEALs, ok? There might be a few but for the overwhelming majority, no. No amount of playing dress up is going to change that.

    So what happens? More and more mundane, routine, low intensity police work gets carried out in high intensity fashion.

    Since few towns and villages have the resources for dedicated personnel needed to train constantly at a level of intensity suitable to ensure favorable and intended outcomes what you end up with is Barney Fifes on the inside swearing to God that they're Dirty Harry on the out.

    and that's when mistakes and accidents cause bad things to happen to good people. Civilian and police alike.
    The view on veterans as terrorists has been around for a few years now:

    http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf
    Homeland Security Report Warns Of Rising Right-Wing Extremism
    Napolitano stands by controversial report - Washington Times
    DHS' Domestic Terror Warning Angers GOP - CBS News
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?

    This will be used against veterans:

    Nearly 30% of Vets Treated by V.A. Have PTSD - The Daily Beast
    Why suicide rate among veterans may be more than 22 a day - CNN.com
    www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41921.pdf

    Other pertinent information:

    http://www.columbuspolice.org/Units/...007trifold.pdf

  2. #82
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Yeah, I know and as a Vet it offends the hell out me.

    So what about the question?

    What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

    Why should a government feel threatened by individuals who put their ass on the line for said government?

    Now, I'm not all Gung Ho GI Joe like some, but seeing as I served, I could understand how the atrocities taking place by our government against the American people would stick in the craw of a USMC who seen 4 of his buddies die over there and have a bit more gumption in his intolerance for this sort of BS that's taking place than some emo grown of age whose hardest life lesson was to get a shot of penicillin in his ass for the clap, but domestic terrorist? C'mon...

  3. #83
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Yeah, I know and as a Vet it offends the hell out me.

    So what about the question?

    What does it say about our government that this view is taken?

    Why should a government feel threatened by individuals who put their ass on the line for said government?

    Now, I'm not all Gung Ho GI Joe like some, but seeing as I served, I could understand how the atrocities taking place by our government against the American people would stick in the craw of a USMC who seen 4 of his buddies die over there and have a bit more gumption in his intolerance for this sort of BS that's taking place than some emo grown of age whose hardest life lesson was to get a shot of penicillin in his ass for the clap, but domestic terrorist? C'mon...
    What's irritating is that we're treated as though we're still in - if one person ****s up then we all get ****ed up for it. I say that because there have been a couple, maybe several instances where veterans or active duty personnel have crossed the line, like the guys from Georgia IIRC that wanted to kill the President. When things like that happen, particularly when they hit the national media, the perception of military personnel, who are already viewed as a threat by bureaucrats the world around, becomes magnified. Why? Because time, money & resources have been put into us and we can hurt them badly. And anyone that can hurt you should at the minimum be watched. The high rate of mental illness & instability in some veterans when paired with the training & combat experience is a mixture of volatile moving parts that make people nervous. But generalizing everyone that has worn the uniform as a ticking time bomb is extreme & should not be accepted nor tolerated.

  4. #84
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jango View Post
    What's irritating is that we're treated as though we're still in - if one person ****s up then we all get ****ed up for it. I say that because there have been a couple, maybe several instances where veterans or active duty personnel have crossed the line, like the guys from Georgia IIRC that wanted to kill the President. When things like that happen, particularly when they hit the national media, the perception of military personnel, who are already viewed as a threat by bureaucrats the world around, becomes magnified. Why? Because time, money & resources have been put into us and we can hurt them badly. And anyone that can hurt you should at the minimum be watched. The high rate of mental illness & instability in some veterans when paired with the training & combat experience is a mixture of volatile moving parts that make people nervous. But generalizing everyone that has worn the uniform as a ticking time bomb is extreme & should not be accepted nor tolerated.
    I laughed at the first part...

    I believe it's the manner in which they go about it and the asinine "what to watch fors" that irk me more than anything.

    Reminds me of the duct tape terror prevention kits...

    Blathering idiots...

  5. #85
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/09/us...partments.html

    Do our police have to be militarized? Is this what we want patrolling our streets?

    Is all this really necessary?



    It may not always be necessary, but when the time comes, you can bet that it will be used.

    There is no law that says that the police have to fight fair.

    Anyone who goes up against the law in the USA is probably going to lose.
    Last edited by shrubnose; 06-11-14 at 04:52 AM.

  6. #86
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I laughed at the first part...

    I believe it's the manner in which they go about it and the asinine "what to watch fors" that irk me more than anything.

    Reminds me of the duct tape terror prevention kits...

    Blathering idiots..
    .



    I don't hear them blathering, I hear you.

    Take a look in the mirror.

    Duct tape and plastic sheeting, used correctly, could save a lot of lifes

  7. #87
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    [QUOTE=ChezC3;1063384885]I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm pointing out that what you suggest, historically speaking has been a failure. This has been proven. [\quote]
    No, it hasn't. All you did was show that the solution wasn't perfect. What you can't show is what would have happened without those laws. For all you or I know, the crime rate would have been 10X what it was without them. I can't prove it and neither can you.

    I don't feel a draconian police state is the answer, I'm sorry, it just isn't. Further, since we want to talk about human nature, it is in our nature to acquire power, and with it abuse it, giving the police, who I'll state again have no constitutional obligation to protect any of us the means in which to further accumulate power will show and has shown that they will abuse such power. I'm not scared of "what ifs" I'm concerned with what is, and what is is a steadily moving government which has turned from a republic, to a democracy, to an authoritarian form of rule. Anything which will hamper this, which is going to happen regardless, but anything that will impede its progress I am 100% in favor of. If this means police will have to make do with Kevlar, semi-auto pistols, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles which is the same as any crazed band of "highly armed" criminals roaming the country side ready to strike Main St. America at any given time, than so be it.
    Why do you think that better equipment = a draconian police state?? I want criminals to be grossly out-gunned by the police, not on equal footing, not just a little worse, but so outgunned that the idea of a shoot-out with the police would be only attempted by the stupidest or most desperate of criminals. I want criminals to understand that when the police show up at your front door with a warrant, the only sane response is complete cooperation, since they have a machine that can drive through your house, backed by weapons that can "shoot through schools" (2 bonus for the movie reference).
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  8. #88
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    That's just it. Criminals do not fight and win against LE now. Look at virtually every police shoot out in the last 20 years how many of then didn't end up with either the bad guy in jail or more likely dead.
    In my opinion a whole lot of this stems from a large % of cops that want to pretend they are badass military SOF shooters. There is almost no reason that cops should be in cammo uniforms or using sniper guns with more range than a 7.62. Yet almost every SWAT is decked out in multicam and tons of Depts are buying sniper weapon systems chambered in 300wm all the way up to 50cal. It is out of hand.
    But they are having shootouts. THAT'S the problem. We need the criminals to know that they are bringing a knife to a tank fight when they come up against LE. We need then to KNOW that they will lose to the extent that they WON'T have shootout, they will simply surrender. We can't stop the idiots, the desperate or those who want to commit "suicide by cop", but we can stop the rest of them from thinking that they can win.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Nonsense, they don't need a 30 ton war machine that they aren't trained for. Come on man. It's overkill. It's like the military using nukes during every war.
    Why wouldn't they be trained to use the equipment?? ...and yes, it most certainly would have been an effective deterrent if deployed to the correct locations. The idea is to stop the fight from happening, not win it. We want the criminals to know that they will lose to the extent that they won't enter into the fight at all. THAT'S the goal. Not winning, but not fighting.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    How many times have police gotten into situations that could only be resolved with heavy military equipment in the last decade? Compare that to the number of innocent people hurt by SWAT teams using completely excessive force for what should routine policing operations.

    Right now there is a baby in a coma because apparently the SWAT team needed to perform a no-knock raid with flagbangs to capture a single guy reported doing a drug deal worth 50 dollars. The suspect they were after wasn't even in the house and no drugs were found.

    I am certain that we are inevitably going to read a story on the news about how an innocent person gets run over because some wannabe rambo idiots rammed their MRAP into the wrong house while valiantly trying to arrest someone for unpaid parking tickets.
    Its just a truck, we make them. I hope every department buys two.

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