View Poll Results: Is All This Necessary?

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  • Yes

    6 13.04%
  • No

    38 82.61%
  • Possibly. (Explain)

    2 4.35%
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Thread: Is All This Really Necessary?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Yes sir, it is!!! Our LE officers have been trailing the criminals they fight in weapons technology for as long as I can remember. We need them to have the best and most effective tools available to make the idea of fighting against them so abhorrent to criminals that their motivation for committing crimes goes down substantially. If a criminal knows that taking off in a car and trying to force the LE to break off pursuit in order to protect civilians will only result in a helo taking them out with a laser targeted missile, they will be far less likely to run, since going to jail is normally more preferable to getting turned into road-kill.
    Back in the day the penalty for theft was the same as murder, Death. There still was thieving, there still was murder.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Nope, the police don't need that. That's excessive. Let the National Guard take care of things that may require a vehicle like that.
    Posse commitatus....
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  3. #43
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Back in the day the penalty for theft was the same as murder, Death. There still was thieving, there still was murder.
    Was there the same amount of theft and murder that there would have been without those laws?

    It's a sad thing to have to resort to forcing people to prove that something that didn't happen, could have happened...
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  4. #44
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post

    I think it is hilarious to see people freaking out and losing their minds because they think the second Amendment, which covered 1 shot ball and powder weapons, gives them the right to have weapons of mass war and carnage.
    But when the Police want to have the ability to counter these mass weapons of war, they do a 180 and want the police to have 1 shot ball and powder weapons.
    The hypocrisy is mind boggling..
    There is some mind boggling hilarity going on right here.....


  5. #45
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Was there the same amount of theft and murder that there would have been without those laws?

    It's a sad thing to have to resort to forcing people to prove that something that didn't happen, could have happened...
    Again with the "what ifs"

    The point is that this will not be a determent.

    It's a sad thing to have to explain that the only reality we have is the one we're in right now. What could have happened didn't happen, and there is no changing that.

  6. #46
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    So what about the people who aren't going to come with their hands up and have an armory of weapons they bought on the black market?? Do we simply send in our officers with batons and shields?? I'm a conservative and I'm not afraid of criminals. What I want is for criminals to be afraid of LE. Right now, they aren't.
    Without dissecting your post into parts, I really don't know where to begin,

    but, I'm not in the least worried about an officer knocking on my door, because in my ghetto, it's almost a daily occurrence. I view LE as my friend, not my enemy. I don't really fear criminals either, since I hardly put myself or better half into questionable situations.

    Those people should be concerned.

  7. #47
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Again with the "what ifs"

    The point is that this will not be a determent.

    It's a sad thing to have to explain that the only reality we have is the one we're in right now. What could have happened didn't happen, and there is no changing that.
    You can't prove that it won't reduce crime and neither can I. You're asking to prove that something didn't happen and that's a dishonest debate tactic. Instead of doing that, how about engaging in honest debate?? Look at the facts of what happens in most human interactions when one person has the power to enforce their will on another. If our LE has the ability to stop a criminal act using superior weapons, that reduces the possibility of that act being carried out. It does not stop it altogether, but it does reduce the number of incidences, since the basic human nature of self-preservation reinforces the idea that fighting a superior enemy means losing the fight. There people who will ignore that and fight any way, but most will not. Take an extreme example: Put four highly armed Navy Seals (with blanket permission to shoot anyone who is even rude to the clerk) in the convenience store in this country with the highest rate of armed robbery. Suddenly, the store goes from having the most robberies to the least and has a very polite clientele. Why? Because they understand that they are going to lose if they are dumb enough to try to rob the store or even call the clerk a jerk. Right now, our criminals understand that they can fight LE and win and that ENCOURAGES their criminal activity. We need to make it so that they understand that they WILL lose if they fight LE and DISCOURAGE them. This isn't a 100% cure for the problem of crime, it's a step in the right direction.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  8. #48
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    You can't prove that it won't reduce crime and neither can I. You're asking to prove that something didn't happen and that's a dishonest debate tactic. Instead of doing that, how about engaging in honest debate?? Look at the facts of what happens in most human interactions when one person has the power to enforce their will on another. If our LE has the ability to stop a criminal act using superior weapons, that reduces the possibility of that act being carried out. It does not stop it altogether, but it does reduce the number of incidences, since the basic human nature of self-preservation reinforces the idea that fighting a superior enemy means losing the fight. There people who will ignore that and fight any way, but most will not. Take an extreme example: Put four highly armed Navy Seals (with blanket permission to shoot anyone who is even rude to the clerk) in the convenience store in this country with the highest rate of armed robbery. Suddenly, the store goes from having the most robberies to the least and has a very polite clientele. Why? Because they understand that they are going to lose if they are dumb enough to try to rob the store or even call the clerk a jerk. Right now, our criminals understand that they can fight LE and win and that ENCOURAGES their criminal activity. We need to make it so that they understand that they WILL lose if they fight LE and DISCOURAGE them. This isn't a 100% cure for the problem of crime, it's a step in the right direction.
    I'm not asking you to prove anything, I'm pointing out that what you suggest, historically speaking has been a failure. This has been proven.

    I don't feel a draconian police state is the answer, I'm sorry, it just isn't. Further, since we want to talk about human nature, it is in our nature to acquire power, and with it abuse it, giving the police, who I'll state again have no constitutional obligation to protect any of us the means in which to further accumulate power will show and has shown that they will abuse such power. I'm not scared of "what ifs" I'm concerned with what is, and what is is a steadily moving government which has turned from a republic, to a democracy, to an authoritarian form of rule. Anything which will hamper this, which is going to happen regardless, but anything that will impede its progress I am 100% in favor of. If this means police will have to make do with Kevlar, semi-auto pistols, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles which is the same as any crazed band of "highly armed" criminals roaming the country side ready to strike Main St. America at any given time, than so be it.

  9. #49
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    You can't prove that it won't reduce crime and neither can I. You're asking to prove that something didn't happen and that's a dishonest debate tactic. Instead of doing that, how about engaging in honest debate?? Look at the facts of what happens in most human interactions when one person has the power to enforce their will on another. If our LE has the ability to stop a criminal act using superior weapons, that reduces the possibility of that act being carried out. It does not stop it altogether, but it does reduce the number of incidences, since the basic human nature of self-preservation reinforces the idea that fighting a superior enemy means losing the fight. There people who will ignore that and fight any way, but most will not. Take an extreme example: Put four highly armed Navy Seals (with blanket permission to shoot anyone who is even rude to the clerk) in the convenience store in this country with the highest rate of armed robbery. Suddenly, the store goes from having the most robberies to the least and has a very polite clientele. Why? Because they understand that they are going to lose if they are dumb enough to try to rob the store or even call the clerk a jerk. Right now, our criminals understand that they can fight LE and win and that ENCOURAGES their criminal activity. We need to make it so that they understand that they WILL lose if they fight LE and DISCOURAGE them. This isn't a 100% cure for the problem of crime, it's a step in the right direction.
    That's just it. Criminals do not fight and win against LE now. Look at virtually every police shoot out in the last 20 years how many of then didn't end up with either the bad guy in jail or more likely dead.
    In my opinion a whole lot of this stems from a large % of cops that want to pretend they are badass military SOF shooters. There is almost no reason that cops should be in cammo uniforms or using sniper guns with more range than a 7.62. Yet almost every SWAT is decked out in multicam and tons of Depts are buying sniper weapon systems chambered in 300wm all the way up to 50cal. It is out of hand.

  10. #50
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    The response is well deserved, considering. No, I'm very mindful, very mindful when I see increased police hostility to the people, increased powers of authority being taken (not given, but taken), increased militarization of police departments which face no credible threat that you propose, the armament of government agencies which needn't be. I'm mindful of all of these things. Don't try to dismiss legitimate concerns as mindless acts of panic, I don't panic, I don't cry "ze Germans are coming ze Germans are coming". I do however take note and point out when government is overstepping its bounds.
    Not an entirely unreasonable point in general terms. This is specifically about a heavy truck though. Cry wolf over that and nobody will take you seriously when you have real issues to complain about.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Also, you cannot say the police will make practical use out of something that you in the breath before admit is only justified with the "what ifs" of extreme situations. That's just not, .....well,.....practical.
    My point was that the extreme abilities of this vehicle might be of specific use in rare situations but it's still a vehicle capable of getting people from A to B.

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