View Poll Results: Is All This Necessary?

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  • Yes

    6 13.04%
  • No

    38 82.61%
  • Possibly. (Explain)

    2 4.35%
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Thread: Is All This Really Necessary?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Hardly. Civilians run the government, police are government employees.

    Are you claiming the civilian population cannot regulate the weaponry of its own police force? If so, you'll need to prove your case which I already know you cannot.
    the real gut splitter will be the claim that civilian law enforcement officials are NOT civilians



  2. #182
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the real gut splitter will be the claim that civilian law enforcement officials are NOT civilians
    I doubt he wants to tangle with that subject today.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #183
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Hardly. Civilians run the government, police are government employees.

    Are you claiming the civilian population cannot regulate the weaponry of its own police force? If so, you'll need to prove your case which I already know you cannot.
    I made no such statement and have no idea where you would get a statement like that from.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #184
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    No rather your argument is that cops have a job to do and that entitles them to better self defense tools than people who aren't government minions.
    WRONG. I have never made that argument about self defense. I do NOT make that argument now about self defense.

    My argument has been from the start and is now the same point which I have explained to you over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread when this comes up: police officers all over the world have firearms to do their job. It has nothing at all to do with the Second Amendment and it is intellectual FRAUD for anybody to try and connect the two things as they are not at all related. Officers have the firearms they do because they perform a certain job and require those tools. You and everybody else here who is not in professional law enforcement has no claim on those same tools because we do not do that job.

    With all due respect Turtle, I would greatly appreciate it if you copied that and referred to it in the future when this comes up another forty of fifty times to avoid presenting anything less than my actual position.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  5. #185
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the real gut splitter will be the claim that civilian law enforcement officials are NOT civilians
    But you already know that reality as every authoritative dictionary you can cite tells you so in plain English.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  6. #186
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I made no such statement and have no idea where you would get a statement like that from.
    Ok then.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #187
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But you already know that reality as every authoritative dictionary you can cite tells you so in plain English.
    actually having been a federal law enforcement officer I prefer the laws of the USA over the colloquial non-authortative definitions that have no relevance



  8. #188
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    WRONG. I have never made that argument about self defense. I do NOT make that argument now about self defense.

    My argument has been from the start and is now the same point which I have explained to you over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread when this comes up: police officers all over the world have firearms to do their job. It has nothing at all to do with the Second Amendment and it is intellectual FRAUD for anybody to try and connect the two things as they are not at all related. Officers have the firearms they do because they perform a certain job and require those tools. You and everybody else here who is not in professional law enforcement has no claim on those same tools because we do not do that job.

    With all due respect Turtle, I would greatly appreciate it if you copied that and referred to it in the future when this comes up another forty of fifty times to avoid presenting anything less than my actual position.
    the intellectual fraud is patent

    1) claiming that civilian cops are not civilians-blatant fraud

    2) claiming that cops are entitled to better weapons than other civilians despite the 2A-FRAUD

    3) and the real fraud-claiming that the term SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED was INTENDED and DESIGNED TO ALLOW ALL SORTS OF INFRINGEMENT.

    tell me Haymarket, why do you think citizens who are not cops are not worthy of having the same level of self defensive weaponry as minions of the government?



  9. #189
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    More CON deflection...

    Who said anything about 'on the criminal's terms'??? You try and parse the parameter to a tiny subset...

    But by far LEO is far more likely to be a situation of being the second one in the confrontation to know a firefight is about to break out- from that deadly 'routine' traffic stop to entering into the middle of a domestic dispute. A burglar just got life plus 20 for shooting a Lawton city cop after attempting to enter a home and the homeowner was present. Homeowner didn't testify in either trial (the shooter had a running buddy, separate trial)

    Again you dodge your 'commission', your academy... I never claimed to have been LEO, just have helped train hundreds and spent a few hours talking to them...

    Did I say ANYTHING about the military, you are just desperately trying to fling poo as you scuttle way...

    Your reprisal BS is just that, this isn't a one time deal for the LEO, it is for the Citizen, a 20 veteran LEO will have HUNDREDS of 'mopes' he put in prison and now are out and about. It is quite obvious you have no Commissioned LEO experience and don't spend much time talking to cops. Most convictions are done without a citizen being the 'star' witness as forensic evidence, LEO testimony to what was found, and video tape of the suspect interview are often all that is needed for the conviction.

    So once again, what court has held your 'theory' on why Citizens should have whatever the LEO has in firepower???
    so many words to say nothing. if you actually read Heller and Miller its obvious

    I will let you figure out why



  10. #190
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    actually having been a federal law enforcement officer I prefer the laws of the USA over the colloquial non-authortative definitions that have no relevance
    Dictionaries are in the business of providing authoritative definitions for words we use. If you can quote a law which clearly defines police officers as civilians - please do so

    Since you brought up your own personal experience, perhaps you can amplify upon it and tell us what exactly you discovered in your capacity as a "federal law enforcement officer" in the way of a definition about cops and civilians?
    Last edited by haymarket; 06-14-14 at 07:24 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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