View Poll Results: Is All This Necessary?

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  • Yes

    6 13.04%
  • No

    38 82.61%
  • Possibly. (Explain)

    2 4.35%
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Thread: Is All This Really Necessary?

  1. #161
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    cops use guns for self defense against criminals. why should other citizens be deprived of the tools our dear leaders have decreed are most useful for such defense?
    Same old drum, eh????

    I do believe the Courts, not the CON crap 'dear leaders', have held citizens are allowed firearms in such defense.(Heller and McDonald, you must have heard of them being a lawyer and all)

    If you refer to the types of weapons and ammunition capacity of said weapons again NO Court has upheld that 'theory' I am aware of.

    The biggest problem with your attempt to equate the 'self defense' function for LEO and citizens is the duty side. Cops are not 'other citizens' but COMMISSIONED Law Enforcement Officers. Cops don't just walk around and only use deadly force if a mugger demands their wallet. Nor is the biggest likelihood of confrontation while asleep at home because of a burglar. LEO is far more likely to confront an armed biker gang than a one way range warrior having a fantasy run on some COF.

    I find it interesting so many who claim Commissioned Law Enforcement is the same as 'other citizens' rarely, if ever, volunteer to go through the Reserve Academy and work as a Reserve Officer, since it is the 'same thing' as just going about your business as a 'other citizen'....

  2. #162
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    cops use guns for self defense against criminals.

    why should other citizens be deprived of the tools our dear leaders have decreed are most useful for such defense?
    I've never said they should. My point related to your statement that "Civilian police have the same limits on engaging criminals as other civilians.". That isn't the case since the police are required to actively pursue, capture and hold criminals, not just defend themselves against them.

    I don't think you can easily differentiate between tools the police use for self-defence and tools they use for proactively pursuing criminals or for protecting the public. That's why the idea that any weapons (or indeed anything else) available to the police being automatically available to the general public on the same basis is flawed. It's not an entirely unreasonable starting point but not one that couldn't have rational exceptions.
    Last edited by HonestJoe; 06-13-14 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #163
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    You can buy all that stuff.
    Not in every state. Which was his point.

  4. #164
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    I voted no, but I could change my mind if there are any more episodes involving mobs of gun-toting fukwadgoons a la the Cliven Bundy episode.

  5. #165
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by HonestJoe View Post
    I've never said they should. My point related to your statement that "Civilian police have the same limits on engaging criminals as other civilians.". That isn't the case since the police are required to actively pursue, capture and hold criminals, not just defend themselves against them.

    I don't think you can easily differentiate between tools the police use for self-defence and tools they use for proactively pursuing criminals or for protecting the public. That's why the idea that any weapons (or indeed anything else) available to the police being automatically available to the general public on the same basis is flawed. It's not an entirely unreasonable starting point but not one that couldn't have rational exceptions.
    so you are saying civilian police officers can engage (and by that I mean deploy lethal force) criminals under different rules than other civilians

    what weapons do you think the 2A were intended to cover. Police weapons are drawing the line a bit conservatively since the M16 or M4 select fire rifles are clearly protected as well



  6. #166
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Same old drum, eh????

    I do believe the Courts, not the CON crap 'dear leaders', have held citizens are allowed firearms in such defense.(Heller and McDonald, you must have heard of them being a lawyer and all)

    If you refer to the types of weapons and ammunition capacity of said weapons again NO Court has upheld that 'theory' I am aware of.

    The biggest problem with your attempt to equate the 'self defense' function for LEO and citizens is the duty side. Cops are not 'other citizens' but COMMISSIONED Law Enforcement Officers. Cops don't just walk around and only use deadly force if a mugger demands their wallet. Nor is the biggest likelihood of confrontation while asleep at home because of a burglar. LEO is far more likely to confront an armed biker gang than a one way range warrior having a fantasy run on some COF.

    I find it interesting so many who claim Commissioned Law Enforcement is the same as 'other citizens' rarely, if ever, volunteer to go through the Reserve Academy and work as a Reserve Officer, since it is the 'same thing' as just going about your business as a 'other citizen'....
    LOL that commission does not give cops or other civilian LEOs any greater power to deploy lethal force. I know, I had a commission and I was a sworn LEO

    so your nonsense is just that-nonsense.



  7. #167
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    LOL that commission does not give cops or other civilian LEOs any greater power to deploy lethal force. I know, I had a commission and I was a sworn LEO. so your nonsense is just that-nonsense.
    Interesting that after all our many talks about Commissioned LEO and citizens you have started and attempted to fly suddenly, you now claim to have held a commission.... what academy did you attend?

    But once again you do the CON game dodge...

    What court has supported your 'theory' that a citizen is allowed whatever weapon or mag a Commissioned LEO carries on duty???

    Point to where I said 'greater power' to deploy deadly force??? You are just trying some very lame CON spin...

    What I said is LEO by magnitudes goes into harm's way as part of his job, far more the average citizen walking the street or sleeping in his own bed.

    The Courts (and more rational folks) have long recognized this, as well a cop has a far greater opportunity of running into quite a few dangerous folks he arrested and testified against in court while the average citizen does not.

    Cops in serving a warrant on gang bangers have a far greater chance of a desperate shoot-out than a one way range wannabee playing fantasy tag...

  8. #168
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Interesting that after all our many talks about Commissioned LEO and citizens you have started and attempted to fly suddenly, you now claim to have held a commission.... what academy did you attend?

    But once again you do the CON game dodge...

    What court has supported your 'theory' that a citizen is allowed whatever weapon or mag a Commissioned LEO carries on duty???

    Point to where I said 'greater power' to deploy deadly force??? You are just trying some very lame CON spin...

    What I said is LEO by magnitudes goes into harm's way as part of his job, far more the average citizen walking the street or sleeping in his own bed.

    The Courts (and more rational folks) have long recognized this, as well a cop has a far greater opportunity of running into quite a few dangerous folks he arrested and testified against in court while the average citizen does not.

    Cops in serving a warrant on gang bangers have a far greater chance of a desperate shoot-out than a one way range wannabee playing fantasy tag...
    more nonsense. Its tough pretending you are pro 2A and being hard core left a the same time

    cops are far less likely to be attacked on the criminals' terms than other civilians. Indeed, other than say private security and bounty hunters, most civilians who have to engage criminals NEVER pick the time and place of the confrontation. Warrants-LOL-you EVER been on a warrant issue run?

    your military braggadocio is once again pathetic and has no relevance to this discussion

    who is more likely to have reprisals directed against them? a cop who arrested a mope or the citizen who was the state's star witness testifying against the mope



  9. #169
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so you are saying civilian police officers can engage (and by that I mean deploy lethal force) criminals under different rules than other civilians

    what weapons do you think the 2A were intended to cover. Police weapons are drawing the line a bit conservatively since the M16 or M4 select fire rifles are clearly protected as well
    Police officers are professionals employed and empowered to do a specific job and as such are given tools to do that job and use those powers.

    You and other civilians, are not.
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  10. #170
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    Re: Is All This Really Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Police officers are professionals employed and empowered to do a specific job and as such are given tools to do that job and use those powers.

    You and other civilians, are not.
    that is really stupid. Its like saying people who are not professional fire fighters cannot have the same fire extinguishers pros use but they can own some fire extinguishers

    if you can claim cops are more likely to be attacked by multiple assailants at the same time as other civilians perhaps you can make a somewhat cogent argument that non LEO civilians can get by with less rounds. But you cannot. In fact, citizens who are not uniformed cops are far more likely to be attacked by multiple assailants than civilian LEOs



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