View Poll Results: Do you assume ppl are racist if they don't support illegal immigration ?

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Thread: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?[W:54]

  1. #91
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    1. When fighting a fire, you concentrate on the biggest problem first.
    Considering we're talking about millions of people a more apt description would be a forrest fire. And when you fight a forrest fire you stand back a ways and build a fire break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    2. Be careful of not comparing apples and oranges. Not only that, but we have to be careful of not shooting ourselves in the metaphorical foot in that even the very right-wing Chamber of Commerce says how important those illegal immigrants are to our economy and how we need to pass immigration reform for them - you know as well as I do how eager 'normal' Americans aren't to work those fields.
    I'll let my link do my talking for me.

    Jobs Americans Wont Do? A Detailed Look at Immigrant Employment by Occupation


    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Also, America has certain traditions, one of which is that we are a nation of immigrants. Those illegal immigrants, illegal though they may be, are still the tired, the poor, the wretched refuse - and all through our history we've lifted our lamp beside the golden door for them, too:

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    In other words, if we become so unwelcoming against those homeless, tempest-tost (especially in the face of the fact that our economy needs them), we just might lose our way as a nation. Oh, we'll still remain big and strong and mostly free...but we might no longer be what we once were, that "Mother of Exiles", the New Colossus for which that iconic poem was named, where all are truly welcome that they may breathe free at last.
    I always find it funny when pro-illegal folks try to use that poem written on our Statue of Liberty. Why you may ask? Because the Statue of liberty, where that poem is written, was home to the largest legal point of entry into the United States. Everyone that immigrated to the US that saw the Statue of Liberty immigrated here legally. Not illegally. And during that time MANY a poor immigrant got turned back and were forced to go home due to diseases and other things.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Actually, today - before midnight - I've got to write a ten-page research paper on how to improve the economy of the Mississippi Delta, which is as bad as much of Mexico's - and significantly worse than some areas in Mexico. According to the research papers I'll be referencing, using tax breaks and similar incentives does draw business to depressed areas - see "Texas" (though they're shooting themselves in the feet by slashing education funding).

    While American tax breaks and tax incentives can't - or should not - apply to a foreign nation (though the GOP pushed through and refused to let Obama repeal tax breaks corporations got for outsourcing our factories overseas), we can give preferential trade deals...but such deals should be conditional on certain economic improvements that would help to build the Mexican economy. It's not something that would work overnight - but we can't look at this as a short game - we have to look at what will provide long-lasting benefits over decades, over generations. Unfortunately, we Americans have a tendency to want immediate gratification. If we're going to fix illegal immigration, we've got to get past that tendency.



    Wrong. I've already shown how in the aftermath of the Great Recession, we had zero net illegal immigration for at least two years, maybe more. Why did we have zero net illegal immigration? Because many were leaving since they felt that economic success was as likely at home as it was here in America. Why did they feel that way? Because our job market - and not theirs - suddenly dried up.

    And you can see this all over the world - illegal immigration always comes from poor (or war-torn) nations to richer nations. Improve the economy of the poor nations...and all of a sudden illegal immigration goes away.



    So...you think that doing what's necessary to fix Mexico's economy (which means we can profitably export to them, too) in order to stop illegal immigration is worse than our problem with illegal immigration?
    Answering your last point first, that has been the history of such efforts by government to 'do what was necessary' to fix various societal problems. Invariably the 'fix' created more problems, often far worse than the original problem was. Government is so very rarely the best means to make things better. The chances of our government 'fixing' Mexico are about as good as they were in Afghanistan or Iraq where we had enormous military might and massive funds to make it happen.

    As for your other points, I am sure you are confident in your point of view, but you cannot know what the statistics are re illegal immigration since government has never yet given us accurate numbers about that. The government has absolutely no way to KNOW everybody who is in this country illegally and will use arbitrary numbers that are at best informed guesstimates and more often politially expedient.

    People usually sneak into this country for opportunity that is not available to them where they are. History should inform us that manipulating other sovereign nations into something we want them to be has been and will always be a fool's errand. The only remedy for illegal immigration is to remove opportunity for those who are here illegally. And we don't seem to have the political will to do that, most especially when those illegals are so lucrative a commodity for the professional political class in Washington and state governments.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    That's an old toilet, probably an antique.

    If I owned that toilet I would put it on the antique auction block.

    You have to admit, the stall is clean and no used soiled toilet paper on the floor.

    Did you get it right ? How often have socialist ever gotten it right ?
    Look, are you seriously trying to tell me that categorising an entire nation of people as unclean and claiming they don't use hygiene products is totally fine?

    You have some serious issues if you think so.

  4. #94
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    How many illegal Canadians do we have in the US?
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Look, are you seriously trying to tell me that categorising an entire nation of people as unclean and claiming they don't use hygiene products is totally fine?

    You have some serious issues if you think so.
    I didn't categorise an entire nation. It would be unfair to compare Tijuana or Tabasco to Mexico City.

    Like many Americans discover when they travel through Mexico are the signs in English informing the gringos not to put the toilet paper into the toilet after wiping their butts. The reason is the plumbing.

    True it's not very sanitary but you don't want 20,000 toilets backing up do you ?

    Have you ever been to a Japanese public bath house ? I doubt it, the Japanese have given up on Americans and foreigners are now usually forbidden.

    I'm somewhat well traveled. I've seen the worlds largest flush toilet. When I sailed the Pacific when the Micronesian Islands were still under control of the U.S. Navy we got permission to land on Ifalik Atoll in the Caroline Islands.

    The first thing we noticed besides the grass skirts crawling with insects and naked tits was that there wasn't one toilet or outhouse on the entire island. Where do you go when nature calls ?

    We were informed you had to wait until high tide and when the tide starts to go out you enter the lagoon and do your thing. The going out tide takes all the turds out to sea. Right after high tide peaks, the entire population enters the lagoon and poops. It's the worlds largest flush toilet.

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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Of course people who don't support illegal immigration aren't racist. But the problem is republicans who tend to support illegal immgration tend to think people who want secure borders are racist. Take lindsay graham for instance. He believes people who don't support illegal immigration are "bigots."
    bears, bulls, white sox fan 4 life!!!

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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Answering your last point first, that has been the history of such efforts by government to 'do what was necessary' to fix various societal problems. Invariably the 'fix' created more problems, often far worse than the original problem was. Government is so very rarely the best means to make things better. The chances of our government 'fixing' Mexico are about as good as they were in Afghanistan or Iraq where we had enormous military might and massive funds to make it happen.
    Of course, of course, government is very rarely the best means to make things better...which is why the most successful democracies in the world are those with small, limited governments, right?

    Oh, wait - the most successful democracies in the world are ALL big-government socialized democracies. Gee...I wonder how that could possibly have happened, if big government is so bad for an economy? Hm....

    As for your other points, I am sure you are confident in your point of view, but you cannot know what the statistics are re illegal immigration since government has never yet given us accurate numbers about that. The government has absolutely no way to KNOW everybody who is in this country illegally and will use arbitrary numbers that are at best informed guesstimates and more often politially expedient.
    Actually, I strongly recommend a couple courses in statistics. Of course the government would never know exactly how many illegals are in the nation at one time...but a good professional statistician can give you a surprisingly accurate estimate. And that is what we work with - not exact numbers, but accurate estimates.

    People usually sneak into this country for opportunity that is not available to them where they are. History should inform us that manipulating other sovereign nations into something we want them to be has been and will always be a fool's errand. The only remedy for illegal immigration is to remove opportunity for those who are here illegally. And we don't seem to have the political will to do that, most especially when those illegals are so lucrative a commodity for the professional political class in Washington and state governments.
    Last I recall, not too many politicians at the state or federal levels have illegals working for them, and illegals rarely have enough money to spare to make significant donations. So...no, they're not a commodity for politicians. They are a commodity, however, for Big Agriculture.

    As to your statement that "history should inform us" of the folly of manipulating other sovereign nations, gee, there's a LOT of those on the Right whom I wish would understand that. But yes, we certainly can and do manipulate other nations with our trade policy - trade has been an effective tool of diplomacy since there has been trade, long before the days of Marco Polo and the Silk Road. There's the great Chinese treasure fleets, which were bigger than anything the West put to sea before the Battle of Jutland. There's the American trading ships that were so effective in our early years as a nation. There's the Spanish treasure galleons. And then there's the "East India Company". All were used for trade...and all were used for very effective diplomacy - sometimes even at the proverbial point of the sword. If you are a student of history, you will know this to be quite factual.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  8. #98
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Considering we're talking about millions of people a more apt description would be a forrest fire. And when you fight a forrest fire you stand back a ways and build a fire break.
    And that will do nothing if you don't take care of what's fueling the fire - the Mexican economy.

    Of course, of course - now try going down to California and telling the farmers that they've got to have only American citizens to pick the strawberries. Good luck with that.

    Yeah, that's a little snarky - true, but snarky. I find it funny and ironic how you're using Obama administration info to support your points, and I'm using the right-wing Chamber of Commerce to bolster mine.

    I always find it funny when pro-illegal folks try to use that poem written on our Statue of Liberty. Why you may ask? Because the Statue of liberty, where that poem is written, was home to the largest legal point of entry into the United States. Everyone that immigrated to the US that saw the Statue of Liberty immigrated here legally. Not illegally. And during that time MANY a poor immigrant got turned back and were forced to go home due to diseases and other things.
    Yeah, and at the same time Native Americans weren't citizens - they had to wait until 1927 (or was it 1924?) for that...I guess you could call that one "amnesty", too.

    As to the poem, "The New Colossus" - I see nothing in it that even implies that it's meant only for legal immigrants. I see "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...the homeless, tempest-tost...."

    If you deal with legal immigration today (as I am even today), we're taking anyone BUT the "homeless, tempest-tost". So...no, I would see that poem as standing for all immigrants, legal or not - because they're ALL human, and as such have the RIGHT to breath free.

    Freedom is NOT an "American right"...but a HUMAN right.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  9. #99
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And that will do nothing if you don't take care of what's fueling the fire - the Mexican economy.
    What do you think the fire breaks do? Add more fuel? You can't stop a forrest fire by going to the heart of the fire, you have to make fire breaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Of course, of course - now try going down to California and telling the farmers that they've got to have only American citizens to pick the strawberries. Good luck with that.
    What do you think amnesty is going to do? Make all illegal aliens citizens...then who are those californian farmers going to hire when there are no more illegal aliens due to amnesty? Get more illegals? Yeah...isn't that the problem thats trying to be solved? You're arguement holds no water. Guess you're fine with letting the forrest burn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yeah, that's a little snarky - true, but snarky. I find it funny and ironic how you're using Obama administration info to support your points, and I'm using the right-wing Chamber of Commerce to bolster mine.
    Actually my source is not from the Obama Administration. From the bottom of their website...

    "The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States. "
    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yeah, and at the same time Native Americans weren't citizens - they had to wait until 1927 (or was it 1924?) for that...I guess you could call that one "amnesty", too.
    Whats this got to do with the price of tea in China? Or are you trying to make that tired old arguement that "we're all illegal immigrants also since the Indians were here first!"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    As to the poem, "The New Colossus" - I see nothing in it that even implies that it's meant only for legal immigrants. I see "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...the homeless, tempest-tost...."

    If you deal with legal immigration today (as I am even today), we're taking anyone BUT the "homeless, tempest-tost". So...no, I would see that poem as standing for all immigrants, legal or not - because they're ALL human, and as such have the RIGHT to breath free.
    Of course you'd see it as standing for all immigrants, including illegal immigrants. The fact that it was set at a major port of entry for immigration and the fact that many poor immigrants were sent back goes against what you're trying to promote. Hate to break it to ya, but history disproves your stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Freedom is NOT an "American right"...but a HUMAN right.
    Show me in any law book that states what Rights people have from across the world that people have a Right to go into another country without that countries permission. The Right to Freedom =/= Right to do whatever or go where ever you damn well please.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  10. #100
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    Re: Why am I insensitive or racist if I find this wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Of course, of course, government is very rarely the best means to make things better...which is why the most successful democracies in the world are those with small, limited governments, right?

    Oh, wait - the most successful democracies in the world are ALL big-government socialized democracies. Gee...I wonder how that could possibly have happened, if big government is so bad for an economy? Hm....



    Actually, I strongly recommend a couple courses in statistics. Of course the government would never know exactly how many illegals are in the nation at one time...but a good professional statistician can give you a surprisingly accurate estimate. And that is what we work with - not exact numbers, but accurate estimates.



    Last I recall, not too many politicians at the state or federal levels have illegals working for them, and illegals rarely have enough money to spare to make significant donations. So...no, they're not a commodity for politicians. They are a commodity, however, for Big Agriculture.

    As to your statement that "history should inform us" of the folly of manipulating other sovereign nations, gee, there's a LOT of those on the Right whom I wish would understand that. But yes, we certainly can and do manipulate other nations with our trade policy - trade has been an effective tool of diplomacy since there has been trade, long before the days of Marco Polo and the Silk Road. There's the great Chinese treasure fleets, which were bigger than anything the West put to sea before the Battle of Jutland. There's the American trading ships that were so effective in our early years as a nation. There's the Spanish treasure galleons. And then there's the "East India Company". All were used for trade...and all were used for very effective diplomacy - sometimes even at the proverbial point of the sword. If you are a student of history, you will know this to be quite factual.
    Well I'll leave your interpretation of history to you and others. I'll stick with my own version of history as I have yet to find any reason to believe that it is not as accurate as it can be made with the information that we have.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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