View Poll Results: Less Government or Better Government?

Voters
69. You may not vote on this poll
  • Less Government

    34 49.28%
  • Better Government

    35 50.72%
Page 29 of 40 FirstFirst ... 19272829303139 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 290 of 393

Thread: Less Government vs. Better Government

  1. #281
    Noblesse oblige
    Ockham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Last Seen
    01-27-17 @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,909
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Of course, of course! Which is precisely why the most successful nations on the planet - the first-world democracies - are all SOCIALIZED democracies (including America) with the very kind of Really Big Government that the Right says is automatically doomed to failure?

    Y'know, guy, if a particular dogma - no matter how precious that dogma is to you - does not explain the reality of the world, if the success and failure of nations of the world is running completely counter to the way that dogma says it should...

    ...then maybe, just maybe y'all oughta take a second look at that dogma...because if the dogma of bigger government is automatically worse government were true, then ALL the world's most successful democracies wouldn't have (and have had for over half a century or more in all cases) the kind of government that dogma says is doomed to fail.

    Faced with that reality that the dogma says should be impossible, is it really so unthinkable to question that dogma?
    Big government = Better government is faulty logic. Big government is wasteful, is intrusive, is arrogant and lives to create and extend itself. The focus of big government is big government, not the people they are there to supposedly serve. You're view of "success" and your misaligned and misinformed history I'll simply chalk up to your extreme partisanship and failed political view.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #282
    Professor

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    06-21-17 @ 12:55 PM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    1,577

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Of course, the absurd position that we cannot measure quality of life within different poli-sci systems! Statistical analysis has not been invented! Objectiveness is impossible!

    It is as if the arguments over the PPACA never happened, that the War on Poverty has not been mulled over, that measurements of income growth per capita are unexplained!

    Really....that is your line of argument?
    In your case, probably.

  3. #283
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,420

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    My God there is a lot of arguing against strawmen in this one.

    Social Security is nearly 80 years old, it is still solvent today, but according to some right wingers on here its some kind of a failure because without modification, it will become insolvent in the future. Name one program in the private sector that has been solvent for over 80 years and never missed a payment. Of course it will need modification going forward, that doesn't mean its some kind of a failure, it simply means that it must change as demographics and economics change.

    Medicare has been around for 50 years now. Going forward it will need modification to remain solvent. That does not mean its a failure, it simply is a reflection of changing economics and demographics. The fact is, the vast majority of seniors are uninsurable in the private sector, and the older they get, the more uninsurable they become. Medicare is simply a reaction to that reality that some people cannot seem to accept due to their own ideological blinders.

    I don't want some huge Scandinavian Style cradle to grave welfare state. I think that in many areas our government is too big and has become to inefficient, but I also am a realist and recognize that there are areas that require public sector involvement in a modern developed country. Namely, environmental protection, some sort of a safety-net, defense, market / banking oversight, and intervening where there is a market failure. That requires a significant public sector. Ideally one that is much more decentralized and thus much more efficient than the one we have, but it still requires one.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  4. #284
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWanderer View Post
    Analogical reasoning is considered an important component of human intelligence. Would you care to play along and discuss the merits of the anology, or would you prefer to continue in your fatuousness?
    Sure, I'm being inane, while you bring up football teams to substitute for discussion of measurement of the effectiveness of policy for people of a nation.

    You already admitted to the fact that we can measure effectiveness of policy, you are still stuck at this gem:

    I just don't think, politically, there is ever going to be an effective measure of government effectiveness
    Gobbledygook...defined.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  5. #285
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWanderer View Post
    In your case, probably.
    Oh, the irony!

    I just don't think, politically, there is ever going to be an effective measure of government effectiveness
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  6. #286
    Noblesse oblige
    Ockham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    New Jersey
    Last Seen
    01-27-17 @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    23,909
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    My God there is a lot of arguing against strawmen in this one.

    Social Security is nearly 80 years old, it is still solvent today, but according to some right wingers on here its some kind of a failure because without modification, it will become insolvent in the future. Name one program in the private sector that has been solvent for over 80 years and never missed a payment. Of course it will need modification going forward, that doesn't mean its some kind of a failure, it simply means that it must change as demographics and economics change.

    Medicare has been around for 50 years now. Going forward it will need modification to remain solvent. That does not mean its a failure, it simply is a reflection of changing economics and demographics. The fact is, the vast majority of seniors are uninsurable in the private sector, and the older they get, the more uninsurable they become. Medicare is simply a reaction to that reality that some people cannot seem to accept due to their own ideological blinders.
    The broken clock method of government success doesn't really mean much. Granted the two programs you've identified are the most widely held bi-partisan examples of government success yet the 80 years of failures, in both (R) and (D) leadership are ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I don't want some huge Scandinavian Style cradle to grave welfare state. I think that in many areas our government is too big and has become to inefficient, but I also am a realist and recognize that there are areas that require public sector involvement in a modern developed country. Namely, environmental protection, some sort of a safety-net, defense, market / banking oversight, and intervening where there is a market failure. That requires a significant public sector. Ideally one that is much more decentralized and thus much more efficient than the one we have, but it still requires one.
    I share your view in that cradle to grave is not wanted but that is the path we're on. Giving any government more fuel to create yet more programs, more policy, more law, more requirements and more regulation only increases the monster that is government. Continue to feed it and the unintended consequence is cradle to grave. The public sector can be bullied, can be threatened, and can be sued and can be audited by government yet the reverse is not possible so the public sector is only as strong as the public and society allow them to be. My concern has been the public has been desensitized to government control through all sorts of areas where, hell, we don't even care that the NSA is keeping all sorts of data on us, that our smart phone camera's can be turned on, mics turned on without our notice. Sure there's a small number of people who are concerned but no buildings are burning.... that's the desensitization. It's bound to fail and rot from the inside or collapse onto itself. People like me would like to avoid that but if it's inevitable and the morons who drown out valid concern with purely partisan hackery, let's hasten the country's demise and start over.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #287
    Professor

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Last Seen
    06-21-17 @ 12:55 PM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    1,577

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Sure, I'm being inane, while you bring up football teams to substitute for discussion of measurement of the effectiveness of policy for people of a nation.

    You already admitted to the fact that we can measure effectiveness of policy, you are still stuck at this gem:

    Gobbledygook...defined.
    I believe you are the one stuck on that remark, unable to listen, process or understand and with all faculty of reason seemingly shut down. Your basic ability to understand the words put in front of your face is lacking and your reaction to such a failure of self is deplorable: you demean those who seek only to be understood as well as those who wish to help you understand.

  8. #288
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWanderer View Post
    I believe you are the one stuck on that remark, unable to listen, process or understand and with all faculty of reason seemingly shut down. Your basic ability to understand the words put in front of your face is lacking and your reaction to such a failure of self is deplorable: you demean those who seek only to be understood as well as those who wish to help you understand.
    Hint: We have plenty of PRACTICAL measurement of government policy showing the desired result of policy. To deny this....is nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Of course, the absurd position that we cannot measure quality of life within different poli-sci systems! Statistical analysis has not been invented! Objectiveness is impossible!

    It is as if the arguments over the PPACA never happened, that the War on Poverty has not been mulled over, that measurements of income growth per capita are unexplained!

    Really....that is your line of argument?
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  9. #289
    Sage
    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, here I am...
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    15,548

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Big government = Better government is faulty logic. Big government is wasteful, is intrusive, is arrogant and lives to create and extend itself. The focus of big government is big government, not the people they are there to supposedly serve. You're view of "success" and your misaligned and misinformed history I'll simply chalk up to your extreme partisanship and failed political view.
    And what nations are the most successful nations on the planet?

    The very same ones your dogma would require to be failures.

    Unless, of course, the definition of 'failure' in your world means having a high standard of living in a clean and safe nation where you have the ability to go pretty much wherever you want, do pretty much whatever you wanted to do (within reason), and to say pretty much whatever you wanted to say. If that's 'failure' in your book, one must wonder exactly what the definition of 'success' is to you.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #290
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Last Seen
    07-16-14 @ 01:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    47,571

    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Um, anyone who talks about "what the founders wanted" in a debate about measuring the best outcomes for all people of a country had better keep in mind that slavery was a govt policy THAT THEY ALLOWED.

    Talk about DUMB.
    It isn't dumb at all because THAT is what our Constitution is based upon. Slavery has absolutely nothing to do with this subject. The topic is Do you think a larger government is better than a smaller government and why?

Page 29 of 40 FirstFirst ... 19272829303139 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •