View Poll Results: Less Government or Better Government?

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  • Less Government

    34 49.28%
  • Better Government

    35 50.72%
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Thread: Less Government vs. Better Government

  1. #111
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The absence of self-reliance isn't even a problem specific to government. How many Americans know *anything* about the accounting that goes into managing their 401k plans or their mortgages or their credit or anything? In the Old West, every man knew everything about all the wealth at his disposal, down to the last penny hidden in the floor boards. Similarly, most people were fair hunters when the need came to it, and more capable of exacting justice on those weeks where the Marshals were on rotation. Self-reliance is under attack from every aspect of our society, not just government; businesses don't want you to be self-reliant because a service you can do for yourself is one less they can provide to you. Banks need you to be non self-reliant so you won't handle your money or your investments personally.

    On one level that's necessary to their competitive edge; cutting our personal management allows the American financing sector to become bigger and obtain more of a global presence. Individuals clamouring for a greater role in managing their own money (giving specific orders about where their money is used, for example) could prove . . . obstructive.
    The government has no responsibility to be the go-between when it comes to a person's sense of self-reliance and a business's attempts to attract sales. Unfortunately, our citizens have been conditioned by an ever-expanding, all-powerful government to believe they do. You appear to believe the government has such a responsibility...but you want to shift the blame to some business that just wants to make a buck.

    Try being honest for a change, eh?

    Furthermore, if there's anything the 2008 recession and China's emerging power demonstrates, its that lack of market interventionism is a huge security risk; if a core industry implodes, then our connections to other countries are weakened and replaced by rivals. Our ability to draw on revenue pay our army and debts is shaken. Domestic tensions increase and the democracy becomes dysfunctional.
    So...a core industry implodes because of ever-expanding and all-powerful government...and you want to use that as an excuse to expand the government even more...to give the government even more power. How typically liberal of you.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  2. #112
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Small government in comparison to what? Large government in comparison to what? Please don't put words in my mouth. If you don't understand my posts, I'm more than happy to clarify.
    We're not putting words into your mouth, you're doing that quite nicely on your own. That's one of the things we've been pointing out. Your wording is implying something other than what you seem to have intended. Or else it's accurate and you don't want to admit it.


    No, it means that government should be large enough to meet whatever problem society deems it should solve. As I clearly stated in my original post.
    Likewise we can also say that government should be small enough to not run roughshod over the freedoms and liberties of its citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    My post is self-explanatory. If you have a problem with it you're going to have to point it out to me.
    Simply because you believe them to be self-explanatory, does not make them so.

    No, I don't err
    Oh you're perfect eh? Yeah this kind of statements loses you all kinds of credibility.

    and I'm not making an assumption. If a government is not large enough to meet the size of a particular problem, then it's too small. There's no way around this without playing word games.
    You're whole question is a word game especially given that the concept of "better" is a subjective value, and "larger" and "smaller" are context related.

    A government could have too small of a military. It could be too small to deal with natural disasters. It could be too small to maintain rule of law. It could be too small to deal with poverty.
    A large number of military personal does not automatically indicate a large government or even a large military. The number of disaster relief personnel does not indicate too small or too large a government. We've seen huge governments like the USSR unable to deal with poverty. Unless you are talking strictly on a number of individuals working for the government as an indicate of the "size" of government, in which case your OP is still highly misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... everybody thinks until discrimination directed at them becomes a permanent part of their existence. If people won't give individuals the respect they require to be functioning and involved members of society, then respect has to be taken by force.
    Define respect and show how it is not a subjective value.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Enjoy those dangerous drugs, that tainted food, that epidemic disease, that unsafe vehicle, that meltdown at the local nuclear reactor, that local toxic waste dump, that commute into a city choked with air pollution, that airplane that crashes with you or a loved one aboard or else into yer house, etc. etc, etc.

    You enjoy and would not want to live without all the benefits that "big government" provides. But yer enough of a hypocrite to pretend that you would wave them off because it would increase yer "freedom."
    You have a logic error here; that a person cannot be protected from others without "big government". You can have small government and still have laws that state that certain safety rules must apply especially when a lack of them would cause harm to more than just the individual(s) involved. For example, if I work on a roof without a safety harness (something I actually do often when I need to do something on my roof) then my harm is only to myself. A nuclear reactor, on the other hand, can harm those outside its boundries if not properly cared for.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    I'd say I know what yer doing, as I've already indicated. You want public safety,
    but you don't want to admit that government plays an indispensable role in securing it.
    My guess is you also don't want to pay for it.
    At what point did cpgrad08 say that?
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  3. #113
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    How would society solve a problem that affects 10,000 people? Lets say a corporation accidentally pollutes the drinking water of a town.
    I think that would easily fall under property laws. Those are adversely affected sue the corporation for damages. Yes the courts are a government solution, but courts of law are something every non-anarchist I've ever talked to would support.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  4. #114
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    What are these kinds of threads? I mean seriously?

    The US is a massive country. It has to have a massive Govt. Get over that already. Unless you intend on shrinking the US, it has to have a massive government.
    Why does a large population necessitate a big government? Unless you simply mean the more people under the jurisdiction of the government the more police that need to be hired, the more courts we must establish, and such things. That is just a matter of scale, not the scope or intrusiveness of government. No one would argue against government scaling to adaquetely serve those under its jurisdiction.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  5. #115
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Which do you feel is more important: A government that is smaller, or a government that can solve important problems more effectively?
    False choice. A smaller government is more effective government.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  6. #116
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    False choice. A smaller government is more effective government.
    Not necessarily. Smaller or larger does not have a given impact upon the effectiveness of a government. The effectiveness and the size of a government are two separate things. The two hold no mutual exclusion or mutual inclusions.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  7. #117
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Less government can be objectively measured

    better cannot be

    look at FDR-if you were a socialist back then who hated the constraints the founders placed upon the federal government-FDR's utter rape of the tenth amendment and his massive expansion of the Commerce Clause was GOOD government since he used those actions to "solve" problems many socialists wanted solved

    to us who despise a bloated federal government, FDR's government was awful



  8. #118
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Less government can be objectively measured
    But still requires a contextual basis. After all the is a less than 1 and even a less than 0. Less government isn't necessarily better or more efficient.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  9. #119
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Why does a large population necessitate a big government? Unless you simply mean the more people under the jurisdiction of the government the more police that need to be hired, the more courts we must establish, and such things. That is just a matter of scale, not the scope or intrusiveness of government. No one would argue against government scaling to adaquetely serve those under its jurisdiction.


    Because your entire concept is inherently inaccurate in respect to government.


    In a massive country government does actually have to be intrusive. It has to have extremely intrusive laws that prevent 20% of the population from becoming heroin and meth addicts whom then crash the health systems of the other 80% of the country.


    Libertarianism doesn't actually add up in the end. It's a lot like Gale the meth cook in breaking bad who was a Ron Paul supporter. He ends up being shot by the very "Total Free market" elements he so believed in (a heroin addict shot him).


    Apparently he never realized that in a true Libertarian society you need very high walls around your house or the addict laden mob you allowed to fester will come to your house and kill you as they do in Mexico.
    Last edited by Ryan5; 06-09-14 at 04:20 AM.

  10. #120
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    Re: Less Government vs. Better Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    Because your entire concept is inherently inaccurate in respect to government.


    In a massive country government does actually have to be intrusive. It has to have extremely intrusive laws that prevent 20% of the population from becoming heroin and meth addicts whom then crash the health systems of the other 80% of the country.


    Libertarianism doesn't actually add up in the end. It's a lot like Gale the meth cook in breaking bad who was a Ron Paul supporter. He ends up being shot by the very "Total Free market" elements he so believed in (a heroin addict shot him).


    Apparently he never realized that in a true Libertarian society you need very high walls around your house or the addict laden mob you allowed to fester will come to your house and kill you as they do in Mexico.
    Actually, you could use a read of "Calculus of Consent". You see, the trade-off is not quite that simple. A society can large and very libertarian and have a functioning state system. The trick is to make it so.

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